Roger Marsh: Well, hello and welcome to Family Talk, the listener supported broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and today, we'll be jumping right back into a conversation that Dr. Dobson recently had with his esteemed colleagues and friends, Tim Clinton and Kelly Shackelford. Now, Kelly Shackelford, Esquire is president, CEO and chief counsel of the First Liberty Institute, which is the largest legal firm dedicated exclusively to protecting religious liberty and freedom for all Americans. Dr. Tim Clinton, of course, is the president of the American Association of Christian Counselors. He's also an accomplished writer and the cohost of Family Talk.
Now, in yesterday's broadcast, Dr. Dobson, Kelly Shackelford and Dr. Tim Clinton were discussing two bills, House Resolution 1 H.R.1, Which is deceptively called the For the People Act, and H.R.5, which is called the Equality Act. Tim Clinton had reminded the audience that even in the midst of uncertainty and looming disaster, we can't lose hope. We know that our God is with us each and every step of the way.
Dr. Dobson: You look at the political situation and how the power has shifted and what they're doing with the power. There's really only one answer, and that's to go to the Lord in prayer and to ask him to spare us from the evil that is coming. I call it evil. That's how I see it. It's not a matter of Democrats and Republicans. There is evil. I feel like Satan has been released, if you will, to walk the streets. I think he's walking the halls of Congress. He's involved in the judiciary, and all of a sudden it's collapsing all around us. If that sounds alarmist, then I feel that way.
Kelly Shackelford: Well, what's happening is disturbing. I want to add though, a ray of hope, something that I want to make sure we don't miss. We had a dramatic change occur over the past four years with our courts. We appointed 234 incredible judges. I mean, these are a different type than we'd ever before, young, brilliant, committed to the Constitution, many of them strong believers. I know many of them. And we changed the future of our judiciary. Religious freedom has been changing as a result. We've been changing really bad precedents from the past.
And the trajectory, I've said this before, Dr. Dobson, recently at a number of events, I really believe that as far as the courts are going, every American is about to have more religious freedom they've ever had in their lifetime. That's the long-term. If we can get through the short-term attacks on our country, like court packing and these other things that would change all these things, that I don't know our country could recover from in the short term, if we can stop that, the future I think is incredible for religious freedom. And the opportunities for people of faith to change others in the country in a really positive way are going to be there.
And so, the way I told my own board recently, is I said, "I've never seen the future so positive with regard to the law and religious freedom." It's just, we're in a short-term knife fight over whether we survive. And so, everybody needs to pay attention now. They need to be on their knees now. They need to be involved now. They need to stand for the truth now and not back down. And we can save the country for our kids and our grandkids. And the future is really, as far as where our courts are going, has been set for decades to come.
Dr. Dobson: Kelly, we owe you a debt of gratitude, because speaking for conservatives and those that hold to a biblical truth, because you played a very key role in the selection of those judges. You were very much involved in that process that took place during the Trump administration. That can change the other way now because they hold the cards, right?
Kelly Shackelford: Yeah. What they're trying to do is change the Supreme Court and probably the lower courts, but their first target is the U.S. Supreme Court. They just announced a commission. The President issued an executive order, creating a commission to "reform the United States Supreme Court.," like we need to reform it. And then days later, they actually announced a bill in the House that would add four justices to the United States Supreme Court. This is called court packing. It is when you have a political party in power attempt to add seats to the Supreme Court in order to get to the political results they want.
It has been tried and done in other countries. It's disastrous when it happens. You devolve into tyranny very quickly, because what you're doing is you're putting the judicial branch underneath the political branch, and it's no longer an independent judiciary, and you no longer have rights because you don't have constitutional rights. You have whatever rights the majority party decides it will allow you to have, because it can simply add however many justices it wants to get to that.
Now, people are shocked by this because they think that nine justices is the number in the Constitution. There's actually no number. So all it takes is to be passed through Congress and signed by the president, and they could add four justices. So this is a real danger. It would destroy the rule of law. It would destroy our courts. And it was tried in 1936 and '37 by FDR. He wanted his New Deal legislation through, and he was frustrated the court wasn't doing what he wanted.
The people, when they understood this, reacted with a fury. Certain days, the Congressmen and the senators were getting a thousand letters a day and they stopped it. Democrats, even though they had 80 of the hundred seats in the Senate, and he was of their party, they couldn't get it through because they understood this would bring tyranny to our country. And we're going to have to have that battle again, because it's right up on us now with this attempt to do court packing.
Dr. Dobson: Now, that brings up the poll that you have just released at First Liberty about how people feel about that court packing approach. Tell us what the findings were.
Kelly Shackelford: The findings are that by a two-thirds majority, the country totally rejects court packing. The independents alone are two to one against court packing. So the country is totally against this. As we begin to educate them, what happened in Venezuela and how they lost their country with court packing, what happened in Argentina, they go up and up and up in the numbers. So people might say, Dr. Dobson, "Oh, good, then we don't have to worry about this."
Now, there's another part in that poll that people need to wake up to, which is over 70% of the Democrats want court packing. And again, they have the House, the Senate, the presidency. So this is a real danger.
Dr. Dobson: There are no checks and balances left.
Kelly Shackelford: And if they get rid of the court, there'll certainly be no checks and balances. So this is a coup on the Supreme Court. That's what this is. And so, we created a website with all the information, because what we're going to need to happen is, just like happened in 1936 and '37, every American is going to have to rise up and speak on this. And so, they can go to this website, it's supreme coup, C-O-U-P.com, supremecoup.com. And there's videos, there's in-depth papers, but then there's simple things that people can talk to their friends about.
I think we can get that number up and more and more people can speak out, and that we will be able to do what they did in '36 and '37. But if we don't stop this, I think our country's over, because if they do this, everywhere we've looked, the country's over as far as freedom. And so, it's something that we have to rise up against and stop. And we can do it, and we've already got a good head start, but it's something that people need to be, everybody out there needs to be the Paul and Paula Revere for our time today.
Dr. Dobson: My goodness.
Kelly Shackelford: I almost look at it, Dr. Dobson, like there's two things that stand in the way of that being one party.
Dr. Dobson: Where there's only one voice.
Kelly Shackelford: That's right. One is the American people who have shown, like I mentioned, back to 1936 and '37, when the Democrats had a massive majority in the House and they still couldn't do this because the people responded. So number one is the people.
Number two is the filibuster. It requires bipartisanship. It's what makes our country much more stable. In order to get something through the House and the Senate, you got to go through the Senate. There's got to be a little bit of bipartisanship. You've got to work together. You got to talk together. And as long as we can keep that, we keep that from happening.
And of course, we've got a few senators, Democrat senators who have spoken publicly that they do not want to get rid of the filibuster, but they are under severe pressure. And so, we've all got to do what we can to just really bolster them up, to remind them of what they've said, to let their state remember what they've said so they can stand strong, because this is about really everybody in America.
Dr. Dobson: Tim, you are a grandfather. You've got this precious little girl. Do you worry about the future of that child and others to come, and what this means for the next generation?
Dr. Tim Clinton: Absolutely. My daughter Megan said, "Dad, I get so worked up about what is this country going to look like and is little Olivia going to grow up in the America that we grew up in?" And I'm not saying America was perfect. But what I am saying is these freedoms that we're talking about, this is all about dominance, total dominance, control. It's a forced agenda. I noted that President Joe Biden in 1983 said that court packing was a bonehead idea. Yeah. And I know he was waffling all over the place during the election when he was getting pushed on it.
But Secretary Pompeo recently tweeted this. He said, "Our Supreme Court justices uphold the rule of the law, not the emotion of the law. Packing the Supreme court to tilt favorable outcomes brings partisan politics into the courtroom. The SCOTUS, or the Supreme Court of the United States, is the last place we need political games." Kelly, what this does, in essence, is it wipes out that branch of government.
Kelly Shackelford: It makes it an adjunct or a subsidiary of the president and the Congress party in power. It's just under the political branch. And once you start it, you can't stop. It's over. So, and we've seen this everywhere else.
Dr. Dobson: There are many things happening in government day by day by day, if you're not paying attention, you're not even aware of the things they're trying to do. We're talking about the headliner items that are so scary. We haven't even talked about all of them. We haven't discussed H.R.1 yet, which is now in the Senate. What bothers me are the things that I'm reading that are happening on daily basis.
Kelly Shackelford: This is happening and, unfortunately, it's not that much of a surprise because we knew beforehand what they had tried and what they were going to try when they got into office. The good news, Dr. Dobson, is that we have laws. We have a Constitution. We do have these protections. They're trying to change all these things. They haven't succeeded yet and we've got great courts to go into now and protect our religious freedom. There've been numerous stories just in the last few weeks by people on the left and other places saying how religious freedom seems to be getting stronger in the courts than it's ever been, and somewhat to their chagrin. I think it's a great thing for America, because that's what our country is built on. So we do have a place to go, but we do have to stand up against these attacks.
Dr. Dobson: Tim, what's your final assessment of what we're talking about?
Dr. Tim Clinton: I think it's a time to engage, first of all. When I see some of our leaders up in Washington, I see some battle fatigue up there. It's rough, it's rough going. And they need Aaron and Hur to come alongside and help them prevail in the battle. Kelly, you understand what that's all about, and Dr. Dobson, you certainly understand it. If there's a time that we need to engage, it's now. We need to pray. We need to pray earnestly for God's divine intervention, that he would visit us in a special way. And the people would be encouraged at the work, the mighty work of God in our midst.
And then, here's a careful word, resist, meaning we don't need to capitulate here. We don't need to go silent. We don't need to go soft here. If there's a time to push back for what we believe in, it's now. And that, by the way, is not hate. It's not hate speech. It's about, listen, we have these fundamental rights. These are our freedoms. And by the way, this is what we believe. This is who we are.
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, and when they started telling Christians that they really are expressing hate in order to follow the system, the democratic system that's been given to us by the founding fathers, I'm always reminded of what Abraham Lincoln said in the Gettysburg Address. It's a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. And that means you and me, and being a Christian doesn't nullify that. We're part of the system too and our rights are at stake too, and our people really do need to weigh in. I know that it's difficult to be heard, but we need to do everything we can to let our leaders know that we're watching, we're paying attention, and we will not tolerate this.
Kelly Shackelford: Amen. And when president Biden issued his executive order creating this commission to reform the Supreme Court, we looked. And embedded in there, which I don't think they even realized was in there, was a call for the American people to express their opinion to the commission. So we are going to form an ability for people to do that, because I think that's a way for the masses to come together and for people who feel like they don't have a voice to begin to have a voice to speak into these issues. But I think we have the American people very strongly saying we do not want this. And people need to start using their voice to make a difference, and especially when we're asked to, like in that situation.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I'd like to add too, I think we're challenged in scripture to speak the truth in love. And by the way, truth is love. And so, how we deliver, that needs to be on our lips. But this is not a time for compromise. This is not a time to give in. This is not a time for silence, for such a time as this. And God be with us and give us strength and courage and boldness in this hour.
Dr. Dobson: Well, I mentioned H.R.1 a few minutes ago. We really haven't had time to deal with that. We've got a little time left. Kelly, tell us what in the world that legislation is and tell us how Nancy Pelosi named it.
Kelly Shackelford: Well, the H.R.1 is, it's hard to describe because it's 800 pages long, but it's the most outrageous ideas you've ever thought of or even conceived in one bill regarding our elections. Everything that people saw that looked controversial or problematic in the last election would be multiplied many times over across the country. It is a federal takeover of all the states' election laws. It would ban the states from asking for ID. It would ban the states from doing anything but allowing people to register even five minutes before they vote. So think about that. So you can register right before you vote, but they're not allowed to see your ID. It would ban the ability to get IDs on mail-in ballots in order for you to know who they are. There's so many things in it. One of my favorites is it actually says that for every dollar a politician raises for their campaign, they get $6 of taxpayer money.
Dr. Dobson: Oh, you are kidding me.
Kelly Shackelford: No. So the name we've given it is the Corrupt Politicians Act, because that's really what this does. It creates all the illegal, no way to have voter integrity, money falling into their coffers. It's just a horrible idea. If you take the pieces of it apart and you poll it, the people are against pretty much everything in the bill. I mean, for instance, take voter ID. 80% of the country is in favor of having IDs before you vote. Well, they say, "Well, that's racist." Well, 70% of Black Americans are in favor of ID. And again, this is the theme to a lot of what we've been talking about. The things that are being pushed are not things that the country really wants. They're things that a small group wants and they're pushing through and hoping to intimidate everyone else not to speak up.
So, it's a key time that people say, "No, this is wrong. This is not how we do things." And it's just one more example of that, Equality Act, court packing, H.R.1. We can go down a long list of these things. And I want people to not be deceived by that, Tim and Dr. Dobson. I think a lot of people think, well, gosh, this is being pushed really hard so people must really be in favor of this. People must be against IDs before you vote. When you look at the polling, it's the exact opposite. It's a vast majority of the country understands you need to have an ID, just like you do when you get on a plane or anywhere else. So don't be fooled and cowered into not speaking the truth because you think there are a lot of people on these things, when really, these are very extreme positions.
Dr. Dobson: Well, I consider it to be egregious. And yet, of course it passed in the House. I don't believe any Republican voted for it, but it passed. It's now in the Senate. What's its status?
Kelly Shackelford: I mean, this is the same situation really, we have with what they're going to attempt to do with court packing, what they're trying to do with the Equality Act. There are numerous others I could lay out, but it's a matter of, they have to get by the filibuster. And the only way this really extreme legislation that everybody knows is extreme, they're not going to get any votes from the Republican side and they need 10 to get by the filibuster. And so, that's where it stops, which is why there's this heavy pressure by the radical left to get rid of the filibuster that's been in place for 184 years. And that is going to be the thing. If that falls, all of these things fall and the most extreme changes we've ever seen in our country would happen, some of which, and this might be one of them, I'm not sure our country would ever recover from.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Kelly, what's scary here is that the filibuster only requires 50 votes to get rid of it, right?
Kelly Shackelford: That's right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: That's what's really scary. I mean, and that's on the table because this, again, all boils down to total dominance, complete radical control. We're never going to go back in whatever direction they hate, meaning conservatives. It's stunning to me that we would even be having this conversation. And what they're doing here in terms of voter registration, just like you said, it just wipes out the integrity of the entire process.
Kelly Shackelford: It's dangerous. It does not allow any state to have a law against ballot harvesting, which is when somebody runs through the neighborhood and just collects everybody else's ballots. You have no idea where these ballots came from. All these things that most people have agreed, even Democrats have agreed in the past, is a really bad idea as far as voter integrity and avoiding fraud. It makes it illegal for a state to try to make sure their elections are free and fair, and that everybody has confidence in those results. Again, it's really extreme and the only way is to get rid of the filibuster.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Kelly, there's one more piece here too. And this recent piece of legislation went through the House on Washington, DC.
Kelly Shackelford: That's right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: And becoming a state. That's like stacking the court, isn't it? We're going to add more senators to what we're doing here to have an ease to get through this.
Kelly Shackelford: That's right. I mean, what they've done is the Constitution says DC cannot be a state. It's where the Capitol is. But they don't care about the Constitution, so what they're doing is they're drawing a new line and saying DC is only the Capitol. And then everything else is a new state they're going to create. So they're going to create two more Senate seats so they can be Democrat and add those to the Senate, and they're going to create another House seat and add that to the House. And again, how does this pass the Senate? It does not pass the Senate unless they destroy the filibuster. So this is really extreme stuff and you can't get it through unless they remove the filibuster.
Dr. Dobson: Well, our guests have been Kelly Shackelford, president and CEO of First Liberty Institute, which is the largest legal firm in the nation dedicated exclusively to protecting religious freedom for all Americans. Kelly, thank you so much for what you do. And also with us is Dr. Tim Clinton, president of the American Association of Christian Counselors, which is the largest and most diverse Christian counseling association in the world. He's also a co-host with me at Family Talk. I love you guys. I appreciate what you stand for and your being with us for these two programs.
And I can only close by saying to our listeners, if you have a relationship with Jesus Christ and you have a prayer concern, be on your knees at this time for your country, because it's all on the line right now. I appreciate you being with us today. We love you all. Stay in touch with us. And thank you, gentlemen, for being with us.
Kelly Shackelford: Thank you, Dr. Dobson. God bless you.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Always fun.
Roger Marsh: Well, Dr. Dobson, Kelly Shackelford and Dr. Tim Clinton covered a lot of topics over the past couple of days here on Family Talk, but all the issues they discussed have one critical thing in common that should unite us as Christians, and that's this. If we concede to accept as law things that go against our convictions and beliefs as followers of Jesus Christ, it will be, as Dr. Dobson says, a line from which we will never be able to cross back again. Think about the gravity of that for just a moment.
It's important to be informed about these issues and we can often think that activity in Washington, DC doesn't really affect us, but that's simply not true. Here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, we realize that it can be easy to get overwhelmed. With so many issues and voices coming at us, it's hard to take everything in and make informed decisions and opinions when it comes to national issues.
That's why here at the JDFI, we create and provide our public policy summary emails. Our public policy team breaks down the political issues in our nation that affect the family and then wrap them in a biblical worldview just for you, our constituents. We want to equip you to think critically and biblically about what's going on in our nation so that you can understand the truth and get involved. Now, to sign up for policy emails, go to drjamesdobson.org/policy. That's D-R, jamesdobson.O-R-G/policy.
Most importantly, like Dr. Dobson and his guests emphasized today, be in prayer. Our God is always in control, even when it seems like our circumstances are out of control. If you're feeling confused or conflicted, go to the Lord. He longs to spend time with you and he is the giver of all wisdom. To learn more about Kelly Shackelford and the First Liberty Institute, or to listen to any part of today's or yesterday's broadcast that you might've missed, visit our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org. Again, that web address is D-R, james dobson.O-R-G. I'm Roger Marsh and thanks so much for joining us today, here on Family Talk.
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