Roger Marsh: Instilling godly character in our children is our chief responsibility as parents. Hello everyone, and welcome to Family Talk, with your host, psychologist and best-selling author, Dr. James Dobson. I'm Roger Marsh. And today you will hear a rebroadcast of a classic interview Dr. Dobson did with education expert and nationally syndicated columnist, John Rosemond, about his book, A Family of Value. On the first installment of their interview the two will discuss how to teach your kids respect and how to base your parenting techniques on scriptural principles and not on culture. Here now is part one of The Three "R's" of Parenting: Building Character in Our Kids on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
Dr. Dobson: You call yourself a psychological heretic. Explain why?
John Rosemond: Well, because I really don't subscribe to what I would refer to, Jim as the party line and psychology. As I see it, some 40 years ago we stopped listening to grandma and her ageless wisdom when it came to how children should be reared in America. And we started listening instead to people like us. And unfortunately, as you know, Jim, our profession tends to be very secular in its understanding of issues. My feeling is that the mental health professional with no wittingness about it led the American family in the wrong direction. And that a lot of the problems that we see today with America's children and with their discipline, and a lot of the problems in a more general sense that we're seeing with the American family have to do with a new philosophy of family living that was marketed to us by mental health professionals in the media, beginning of the '50s and '60.
Dr. Dobson: And it's getting more extreme all the time. I find myself farther and farther from the mainstream of the psychology profession with the passage of time. The research that's been released just recently, just absolutely blows me away. I don't know if you're aware that the Psychological Bulletin carried an article and a meta-analysis, if you will of-
John Rosemond: Pedophilia.
Dr. Dobson: Yeah, having to do with the sexual abuse of children and saying it wasn't all that big a deal, and most kids are not hurt by. There was another one called deconstructing the father, saying that fathers are not needed. I mean, these are crazy ideas. And I find myself like you do looking backward to the wisdom of where we've been, because grandma did know, didn't she?
John Rosemond: Oh, yes, she knew. And it's not to say that there was some children who were not raised well by their parents back then. There will always be, given the fallible condition of the human race there will always be bad parents and people who shouldn't have had children in the first place. But from all accounts, and in fact, all the numbers would support the idea that children fared better, even though they grew up all of them in imperfect families 50 years ago than they are fairing today. One of the things that just horrifies me is the increase in violence among children. The teacher reports of the gross amplification of behavior problems in the classroom and so on and so forth. I think the message is all around us in our culture. What we have failed to do in an overall sense is that we have turned our attention as parents away from instruction and character in the American family.
John Rosemond: And we are now today focused on the development of specific skills, such as soccer talents and developing a gifted child. And we're no longer focusing on what scripture calls the things that remain. I keep telling people, "You know, it's fine and dandy that your child's soccer team wins the state tournament when he's seven years old. But when he's 25, that's going to be irrelevant in a job interview. No one is going to ask him, 'How many ribbons did you acquire in afterschool activities?' What they're going to be looking at is the substance of his being, his personality, his social skills-
Dr. Dobson: And his character.
John Rosemond: And his character, all of which reflects character, of course. And I tell parents, "What we need to begin doing is using the families as a workshop, as a classroom to once again turn our attention to characteristic and child rearing." I started out with a very idealistic mindset. And Willie and I were parents when she was 19 and I was 21. And I was playing in a rock and roll band. And I was a leftist, liberal, college agitator at the time.
John Rosemond: My story is one of a lot of bumps in the road and a lot of curves in the road. And I finally realized, Willie and I both came to the same epiphany I would say when Eric was nine years old, that despite our best intentions we were not growing the children that we wanted to grow and the children that we were responsible for growing to the Lord. So we examined ourselves at that point in time and realized that, "Well, what we were doing was we were following a psychological prescription for child rearing, instead of a scriptural prescription." And it took us, I mean, it was not overnight process by any means as you can well imagine. But it was at that point that Willie and I made the decisions that caused us to begin aligning our family and reconciling our family to scripture.
Dr. Dobson: Some of the things that you are writing today, including this book, A Family of Value, comes out of that understanding. And let's talk about three of them. You kind of organize the major portion of this book around three R's. You put heavy emphasis on respect, explain it.
John Rosemond: Well, I think it all begins there. I think it is scriptural an accurate interpretation of scripture to say that you don't develop respect, true legitimate authentic respect for yourself until you have given respect away in adequate amounts to your fellow human being. And what I see, and what teachers tell me around the country who I talk to, and I talk to a lot of teachers. I specifically seek out in my travels teachers who've been teaching for 30, 40 years. I just found a woman in Florida teaching in a parochial school where they don't mandate retirement, has been teaching for 55. But I ask these people, "What have you seen in children? What general observations can you make then versus now?" And one of the common things that's always referred to is that today's child has less respect for adult authority. And in my estimation this speaks to not bad parenting, but it speaks to parents that are probably working very hard in most cases to do the right thing, but their energies are misplaced.
John Rosemond: One of the things that I have sized time and time again with parents is, you can work very hard, but put your energies in a counter productive direction and not get a very good outcome. You can put a minimal amount, a conservative amount of parenting energy in the right direction and come out with a fantastic outcome. And I think today's parents, again, it's not a matter of not wanting to do a good job. It's a matter of they have been so propagandized by these psychological professional messages. That really, when it comes to teaching something as basic as respect, they just don't understand the fundamentals and how to do it.
Dr. Dobson: Let's talk about. We're talking to many parents out there who are concerned about that. Their children don't show respect for them or for their teachers or for other forms of authority and the culture. Where do they start? What do they look for? How do you build that cornerstone?
John Rosemond: I think the cornerstone is an intact family with a father and a mother who put their marriage first, who are husband and wife before they are mother and father. And it's not that the children get neglected or shoved to the side, but that the children see that there is a relationship at the center of the family that stabilizes this family, that empowers this family.
Dr. Dobson: So they are showing respect for one another?
John Rosemond: That they're showing respect for one another. And that respect for one another galvanizes the children's attention. It causes the children to pay attention to their parents, which is a litmus test of the children's respect. And then from there to more practical level, I think the next thing that parents have to do is to teach good manners, such basic things as please, and thank you, and you're welcome. And yes, ma'am and no ma'am.
Dr. Dobson: What would you do or recommend that a parent do when a child seven years of age looks up at mom or dad and said, "You shut up, I will not do it." And is very sassy and disrespectful to the parent?
John Rosemond: Well, my own, I can remember a incident like that with my daughter. I told her to set the table. She stomped, she was about seven, Jim. I was cooking dinner that evening. Willie wasn't home. Amy comes behind me in the kitchen. And I said, "Amy, I need you to set the table this evening." She stomped her foot. She said, "I'm not going to do it. You always tell me to do everything. You never tell Eric to do anything." And she just went on and on. And at some point I became deaf to her words. And all I could hear was this totally disrespectful tone. And I put down whatever I was doing. And I turned around very calmly, walked over to her, turned her to the side, whacked her twice on her shock absorber and-
Dr. Dobson: A place specifically designed.
John Rosemond: Designed, and turned her back around and said, "Now you listen to me, young lady. Number one, you don't have permission to talk to me or any other adult in that fashion. Number two, when an adult, whether in this home or somebody I've identified as an authority figure tells you to do something, you do it. Number three, you will set the table and then you'll go to your room and remain there until dinner time. You can join us for dinner. As long as you're well behaved, you can stay with us at the table. And then after dinner you're going to bed." I have to tell you, my daughter is now 27-years-old. She's married. She's a delightful individual. She's a good friend. She turned my place setting 90 degrees before she went to her room. She had to get the last word, but she did it. And that's sort of the approach that I would recommend. I mean, it would vary from situation to situation, but that's generally speaking the approach.
Dr. Dobson: You have taken a lot of heat for recommending spanking under certain circumstances, and so have I, and I'd like to hear you defend that position. There aren't very many of us left who will do so, because of the tragedy of child abuse and people do abuse children. And the implications of a harsh and unloving parent doing that has caused people to back away from what I have felt for 30 years was appropriate under the right circumstances. And you apparently agreed?
John Rosemond: From a scientific point of view, if you look at the research, none of the research that seems to support the contention that spanking has negative behavioral or psychological effects is worth the paper it was written on.
Dr. Dobson: It's none, it's none.
John Rosemond: It would be, have been held up, Jim, as you know, in our experimental psychology classes as a prime example of horribly done research. Yet this research is being used to promote a pseudo-scientific conclusion to the effect that spanking causes children to become violent later in life or increases that risk, et cetera, et cetera.
Dr. Dobson: There's no evidence of that whatsoever.
John Rosemond: Absolutely none. I was before an audience and in fact, Pueblo, Colorado about three years ago and about 750 people, just 50 miles down the road from where we are now. And this issue was on my mind. And I started talking about it sort of impromptu in front of the audience. And I said, "How many of you were spanked as children?" And almost everybody raised their hands. And I said, "Well, now I can't believe that there are this many violent criminal types who were attracted to my talks." And there was this pause and everybody understood what I was talking about. They just burst out laughing, you know? But the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that children who are horribly abused don't even necessarily become violent. They might become terribly depressed and never act out violently at all.
John Rosemond: On the other hand, they might become violent, we have to be concerned about that situation. But the evidence also suggests that a mild to moderate spanking administered occasionally on an appropriate disciplinary situation does nothing but increase the power of the parent's message to the child. And therefore increase the likelihood that the child will stop misbehaving in that fashion. And I maintain we have an obligation to children to get them to stop misbehaving.
Dr. Dobson: There is a vast difference between the parent who is responding to the child's defiance and uses that technique in a controlled and loving manner, hugs the child afterwards, uses it as a teaching tool, is committed to the teeth to the welfare of that child. As opposed to parents who are slapping kids around and wounding them and hurting them, hate him really, and neglected them. And the people who do research on this put those two camps together. Everybody who uses corporal punishment is all in the same camp. Well, of course you're going to get a difference between those that are lumped together like that and those who don't. And so it is just faulty research. And yet the American Pediatric Association has concluded that that is harmful and yet many, many pediatricians disagree.
John Rosemond: But you know, the problem in our society today, Jim, is that we used to live our lives according to two sort of guiding principles. And they were Judeo-Christian tradition and family tradition. We used to revere these two sources of information concerning how to live our lives. And I tell my audiences, "The problem today is that the average American and I dare say even many people who profess close attachment to Judeo-Christian values, unfortunately they live their lives in a secular fashion. They let the media tell them how to live their lives." And the media has taken the side basically of these politically correct messages concerning spanking and other issues that you and I deal with. And so the American public is understandably convinced, you spank a child and this teaches the child to be violent, when there's no evidence of that whatsoever.
Dr. Dobson: As a matter of fact, John, I'm sure you've taken heat for this one too. You say that children should be intimidated by their parents. Explain that.
John Rosemond: Well, I think there's a difference between being intimidated by one's parents, which I think is a legitimate expression on the part of the child of awe and respect, and the parent's effectiveness at galvanizing that awe and respect. And a child who is fearful in the sense of he's shaking in his boots, whether proverbially or literally, when his parents walk into the room. Certainly there are children who fear their parents in that second sense of the term. Those parents are not teachers. The parent more than anything else needs to be a teacher, and any good teacher intimidates her students or his students. You can't teach unless to some degree you intimidate. And by that I mean, you convince this individual that you know more than he does, that you know the right answers, and that he has a need and a self-interest to look to you for that guidance and those answers.
John Rosemond: And that's the only way, ultimately that the child is ever going to understand the responsibilities that he must assume within his relationship with God. And I tell parents, "If you don't provide that model at an age at which the child can't understand the concept of God, then when the child does get to that age, it's going to be very difficult for him to understand that he's not free to rebel against our Father."
Dr. Dobson: You call it a benevolent dictatorship?
John Rosemond: Exactly. Benevolent dictatorship.
Dr. Dobson: With the emphasis on benevolent.
John Rosemond: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Dobson: Why are parents having so much difficulty with establishing authority and respect, John? Why is that so tough for them today?
John Rosemond: I think they've been deluged by so many messages from the mental health community that they just can't act with a clear sense of purpose anymore and a sense of confidence. The parents that I talk to around the country, and the conversations I have with them, it leads me consistently to believe that today's parents second guess themselves constantly. They think too much about every single interaction they're about to have with their child.
Dr. Dobson: You have said in fact that child rearing is really not that difficult.
John Rosemond: No, it's not that difficult at all. We've made it difficult. Grandma can tell you it wasn't difficult. And people say, "Well, times have changed. The times are more difficult." And I say, "Wait a second. My grandparents when they were alive told me the child-rearing was easy. These people raised children when there was a war and a depression. Now don't tell me that things were easy. They weren't easy, but these people had a sense of purpose and a clear headed means of accomplishing that purpose and child-rearing." And I think we've lost the clear-headedness of it. And one of the things that I do as I travel around the country is child-rearing isn't hard, staying married is hard. Child-rearing is easy. You don't have to negotiate anything with a child. One of the problems, and you illustrated it that there is, that the media, the mental health professional community by and large over the last 30 to 40 years has led parents to believe that you should conduct the parent-child relationship the same way that you conduct the husband-wife relationship, or a relationship between any two adults.
John Rosemond: They have not acknowledged for 30 years that there is a fundamental difference, qualitative and quantitative between the parent-child relationship and a relationship that exists between two adults. And one symptom of this idea that, and it's caused adult-child relationships to become leveled in many cases, is this absurd notion that it's possible for a teacher to have a personality conflict with a child. This is driving me crazy lately. I hear people say, "My son's third grade teacher is having a personality conflict with him." And of course, what they're referring to is a child who is not obeying his teacher. And doesn't like her and goes home and complains about the teacher, and the parent, because the parent doesn't hold a traditional scripturally-based view of adult-child relationships takes the child's possession and comes forth with this absurd statement that the teacher and the child are having a personality conflict.
John Rosemond: And I usually look at the parent, because I tend to be blunt, gentle, but blunt, hopefully gentle, but blunt. And I usually say, "You know what I think you're talking about is a teacher that's probably got some very legitimate problems with your child. I think your defensiveness is causing you to be unable to listen to the teacher. And I want to point out to you that there's going to be great damage done to your child's ability to have respect for authority figures if you don't side with that teacher and support her authority."
Dr. Dobson: John, you are speaking to 200 audiences per year, traveling back and forth across North America I'm sure. You find parents are hungry for this traditional understanding? Are they questioning, are they asking, are they uneasy with the responsibility of raising kids?
John Rosemond: Oh, they're terribly uneasy. They're terribly insecure. One of the things I say at the outset of many of my talks is that I'm aware who I'm talking to. I'm talking to through none of their own fault or failing the most neurotic, anxious, guilty generation of parents to ever inhabit this culture. And of course that draws a great laugh, but I sense that the laugh is a sigh of relief that, "Oh, we're in the right place, you know? This guy is going to help us get rid of all that." And that's really what I try to do by just as you said earlier, talking common sense and reminding them that Judeo-Christian scripture it's all right there.
Dr. Dobson: Well, you have a lot of that common sense in your book, A Family of Value, and straight talk on strengthening the American family and rearing successful, happy children from America's most widely read parenting authority, John Rosemond. It's been good to have you here, John. And there's a lot more to talk about. We began by saying that you've built this book around three R's, and we talked about the first one of respect. Will you be with us next time, and we'll pick up with the other two?
John Rosemond: Absolutely.
Dr. Dobson: Let's do it.
Roger Marsh: You have been listening to day one of Dr. James Dobson's interview with nationally syndicated columnist and education expert, John Rosemond here on Family Talk. If you enjoyed what John Rosemond had to say and would like a copy of his book, A Family of Value, go to our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org. We thank you so much for your continued support of this ministry. And now is the great time to partner with us here at Family Talk. If you can give, you can make your contribution securely online at drjamesdobson.org, or over the phone. It's (877) 732-6825. Again, the toll free number to call, (877) 732-6825. And thanks so much for your financial support and for your prayers for this ministry.
Roger Marsh: I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again tomorrow for the conclusion of our interview with John Rosemond and the discussion on teaching your kids responsibility and resourcefulness. That's next time on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
Announcer : This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Dr. Dobson: You know, there are those who believe so strongly in the value of positive thinking that they see nothing to be gained from that which is negative. Well, I respectfully disagree. It's the balance between the positive and the negative that provides the benefit. Let me illustrate. If you place the cable on the positive pole of a car battery, nothing happens. You can put it in your mouth, there'll be no danger. Then take that cable off the positive and put it on the negative pole. There's still no electricity, but what happens when you hook up both the positive and the negative poles? It'll curl your hair if you have any left.
Dr. Dobson: Understanding the interaction between these two forces is especially useful to the task of raising children. There's a time for affirmation and closeness and tenderness and love, that's what nourishes the spirits of our kids. But there's also a time for correction and discipline, and maybe even occasional punishment. Moms and dads who try to be eternally positive, ignoring irresponsibility, or defiance or selfishness in their children will deprive those boys and girls of the benefits of correction. But those who are oppressive and accusatory can also create serious behavioral problems. So what's our goal as parents? It's to balance the positive and the negative, making sure that the cable is hooked to both poles of the battery. That's where the power is found.
Roger Marsh: Hear more at drjamesdobson.org.