Dr. Clinton: Hi everyone. This is Dr. Tim Clinton, executive director of the James Dobson Family Institute and president of the American Association of Christian Counselors. I wanted to take a moment to let you know that we here at the James Dobson Family Institute love you, and we're praying for you. If you're struggling and need some encouragement, we'd be honored to pray with you. You can call us toll free at (877) 732-6825, or simply go to drjamesdobson.org.
Roger Marsh: Hello everyone. I'm Roger Marsh and welcome to Family Talk, a part of the James Dobson Family Institute. In just a moment, we're going to continue celebrating our ministry's 10th anniversary with another popular program from the past decade. Today, we are revisiting a broadcast from May of 2019, featuring Dr. Dobson and Dr. Tim Clinton, who is the executive director and dean of education here at the Dobson Family Institute. Their discussion then revolved around the need for godly men, especially in this declining culture. Dr. Dobson and Dr. Clinton also highlighted the masculine characteristics that men should hold fast to. Both of these men have a heart for Dads and Sons and you'll also hear about that today as well. This conversation is so pertinent because it touches on God's true intent for biblical manhood. There's a lot of great content to get to, so here now is Dr. James Dobson on this edition of Family Talk.
Dr. Dobson: Well, hello everyone and welcome to Family Talk, which is a division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm your host, Dr. James Dobson. My guest today is my colleague and my friend, Dr. Tim Clinton. He's a very well known professor and author and a counselor, and he's president of the American Association of Christian Counselors, which has over 50,000 members. This man is deeply qualified to deal with the subject we're going to talk about today, Tim, it's so good to have you here. I'm going to make an opening statement, and then I'm going to turn it to you. But thank you for being here. You got up at four o'clock this morning to be here today, didn't you?
Dr. Clinton: We were going early, but I'll tell you what, Dr. Dobson, I'm so delighted to be here. It's always fun to get here at the Family Talk headquarters and, by the way, to talk about something near and dear to our hearts.
Dr. Dobson: I can tell that that really matters to you and it does to me, and I can't wait to get into it. Did you sleep on the plane at all?
Dr. Clinton: I got a nap. A cat nap, but I'm good to go.
Dr. Dobson: Okay. Today, we're going to take a good, hard look at masculinity, which is embroiled now in an all-consuming culture war. Everything manly is subjected to ridicule and resentment in some quarters, especially by some women in the feminist movement, but it's much broader than that. Now, this is not a new phenomenon, of course. It goes back to the 1960s when the sexual revolution exploded on the culture and turned it upside down. I am old enough to have lived through that time. It was generated primarily by the feminist movement that began with such anger at everything traditionally masculine.
Dr. Dobson: I remember playing tennis one day and there were two women playing on the court next to us. As it happened, we both finished our games at about the same time and I went over and gathered my gear and I walked toward the fence. One of the women who had been playing next to us was also leaving and we got to the gate at exactly the same time, and I did what I had been taught from early childhood, that a gentleman should always defer to a girl or a woman in a situation like that and I opened the gate and I stepped back and I let this lady go first.
Dr. Dobson: To my surprise, that made her livid. You'd have thought I had slapped her in the face and called her a bad name. All I had done is treat her with respect, and I'd step back and let her go first. She huffed at me as she went through the gate, and then she turned and looked back at me in utter scorn. Well, that was something I wasn't used to. In fact, I didn't understand it because I had never encountered anything quite like that before. I didn't know that there was a revolution going on at that point.
Dr. Dobson: I had been taught, as I said, when I was a boy and later as a man that, when I was on a bus or a train and a woman was standing nearby, I should always stand up and offer my seat to her. If she needed help lifting her suitcase down from the compartment above, that was what I was going to do. I was going to offer to do. It was a way, again, of showing respect. But all the rules changed in the 1960s because, every symbol of traditional masculinity was interpreted or reinterpreted as an insult to women. Men didn't fight back for the most part at that time, but we seem confused by it all. That just simply had never occurred to us.
Dr. Dobson: The media became very energized by the feminist movement. During that time, commentators began referring to men, believe it or not, they referred to us as male chauvinist pigs. That was not occasional. That was used, that was said over and over again. We were called pigs. I wonder if there's anybody in our listening audience who still remembers that or knows about it, because the culture continued to evolved and this hostility of women to men is still very intense and personal. But it's become a matter of a great deal of comment in the popular culture.
Dr. Dobson: Well, that division between the sexes never really subsided. Instead of calling men pigs, now we're called by the term toxic masculinity. Certainly, from those in the media. The New York Times just recently quoted the American Psychological Association in an article that was reprinted in Psychology Today, and it claimed that traditional masculinity, and I would consider biblical masculinity, is actually harmful to boys. There's a major effort to depict masculine men as broken and need to be fixed. They are being ridiculed and mocked and men still don't seem to know what to do in response.
Dr. Dobson: This is a stupid position to take. It's not only dangerous for immature boys, but also to mothers in their relationships with their husbands. This assault on masculinity tears into the very fabric of the family, which is what we stand for here at Family Talk.
Dr. Dobson: Jesus said that the creator made two sexes, and he made them male and female, very, very different from each other. Everything depends on harmony between them in the best interest of bearing and raising children and in every aspect of society. What does it mean for a man to behave in ways that are appropriate from a biblical point of view? In the illustration I just gave, should a bigger, stronger man like me, I was young, I was 6'2" and in my prime. Should I push a woman aside trying to get through a gate and leave her on the ground? Does that make sense? Is that what she wanted? Tim, that's just the beginning, but you are very deeply involved in the men's movement. You spoke recently and hosted an event that had 5,000 men in attendance. I think it was a sellout, wasn't it?
Dr. Clinton: It was, Dr. Dobson.
Dr. Dobson: You told me the other day that there was great energy there and great passion. First of all, describe your reaction to what I've said. Then tell me where you see this going.
Dr. Clinton: Dr. Dobson. I stand with you. We don't agree with the APA, the American Psychological Association's position. I think what they've done is they've moved into this political correctness sphere. They're more worried about making a statement in that direction than they are even following what they deem is science. When you-
Dr. Dobson: There's not science in that.
Dr. Clinton: I know, but they're pressing in that direction. It really is an assault on maleness, is what we're talking about here. Dr. Dobson, in that event, we saw something different. There was a stirring among these men that was palpable. You could reach out and touch it. If you were in the midst of it, you sensed a group of men who are there not wanting to flex their muscles, but wanting to get their voice back. To have an influence. To be men who deeply cared about their families. To be a dad. Men of honor. Someone who was present. Someone who renounced sin. Someone who stood strong in the face of adversity. Someone who wanted to protect, to provide, to love.
Dr. Dobson: They've taken that away from them. What would you have done at the gate?
Dr. Clinton: I'd have open the gate.
Dr. Dobson: Sure you would have.
Dr. Clinton: I was taught that. You defer-
Dr. Dobson: You don't push her aside. You don't go and compete for space coming through a gate.
Dr. Clinton: Of course not.
Dr. Dobson: If that ain't the dumbest thing.
Dr. Clinton: You know what I'm seeing too? Yeah. It's just unreal. But I watched a lady today on the plane. I was seated back away, two rows, and she was trying to get this big, heavy suitcase out and she couldn't get it out. A lot of the men were standing there, I think some of them were nervous to reach over and take it.
Dr. Dobson: You don't know what to do now.
Dr. Clinton: I know. They were frozen, but I'll tell you what. I think men are tired of this beat down. Of being looked at as buffoons, as being marginalized. Seen as nothing more than porn addicts or bad husbands or what have you. All just sort of shoved into that box. Dr. Dobson, there's some real men out there, who, by the way, I'm not saying that there's not brokenness. We're not saying that there hasn't been violence perpetrated against women and they have been silenced, but we can't swing the pendulum completely the other direction.
Dr. Dobson: That's the case. That's it in a nutshell. A lot of behavior that's been shown by men has been reprehensible. Women have been sexually abused. They have been taken advantage of. They have been drunkards. There is a lot of sin out there. Let's face it, but that's not what biblical masculinity means. Setting all that aside and turning our back on it, we need to know, what is the role that we should play?
Dr. Clinton: You know what I'm finding too among the women, they want men to take their rightful place. They want them, remember, they're married to them. They have sons. They have dads. They have beloved men in their life that they really do care about. They don't want to see them beat up, they want them to have their role in their place.
Dr. Dobson: Or wimpy, lacking in confidence.
Dr. Clinton: No. They don't want that. They want men to be strong. They want them to stand for what's right. For righteousness. To be able to face times of adversity. To understand what it means truly, like David to Solomon, "Show yourself a man, Solomon. Adversity and trial are going to come." But he doesn't stop there. He goes on and says, "Listen, follow the ways of the statutes of the Lord with everything you've got. Make sure that's in your heart."
Roger Marsh: Well, this is Roger Marsh once again, and we have reached the midpoint of this 10th year anniversary broadcast selection. I hope you enjoyed our look back at the most listened to programs from the past decade. Now, before we resume today's program, I want to remind you that our ministry is completely listener-supported. Your faithful financial contributions allow us to continue fighting for the institution of the family nationwide. Visit drjamesdobson.org to learn how you can support us financially. That's D-Rjamesdobson.O-R-G. Or you can call for more information at (877) 732-6825. That's (877) 732-6825. As always, please know that we covet your meaningful prayers for Dr. Dobson and this ministry. Okay. With that, let's tune back in now for the conclusion of this popular edition of Family Talk.
Dr. Dobson: Tell me more about that event that took place. Express what that excitement was intended to convey. What was going on in those men?
Dr. Clinton: We wanted to have an event that lifted men up, that encouraged them, because they so often get beat down by every thing in their life.
Dr. Dobson: Yeah. Watch prime time television, the sitcoms that are out there, the men are always fools. They're shown to be complete wimps. The things they say are disgustingly foolish, and they're saying something about the worth of a man. The woman is always young and beautiful, and she usually turns away or says something to express disgust for her man, for her husband. That gets conveyed to the next generation. We've got millennials who have been raised on that. That's all they've seen. They've never even seen a man who was a man's man, a caring, loving, protecting, providing man's man. That's what the Bible teaches.
Dr. Clinton: Dr. Dobson, when I get one on one with men and we talk about what's going on in their inner world, I ask them about their relationship with God. They say things like, "I wish I knew him better." "How are you doing as a dad?" A lot of people think he's disengaged or doesn't care. You know what kind of an answer I get, "I think about it every day."
Dr. Dobson: Is that right.
Dr. Clinton: "I want to be a good dad. Is it too late for me? Can I-
Dr. Dobson: You have just become a grandfather.
Dr. Clinton: I have.
Dr. Dobson: And you're pretty excited about that. You want to be a good granddad to that little baby girl?
Dr. Clinton: With everything in me. It's a whole different world. I love it.
Dr. Dobson: Tell me about her.
Dr. Clinton: She is Olivia Ann and my daughter, Megan. By the way, we have Julie Ann, my wife, Julie. My daughter is Megan Ann, and now this is Libby Ann. We call her Princess O. I call her Princess O. She reminds me every day she's in control, that I get to see her. She's a joy. She's brought so much happiness to our family, and I realize the significance of bonding at another level. The preciousness of life. The power of influence. The significance of being there and shaping that little heart, those hands. That's what this is all about.
Dr. Dobson: Tim, you would give your life for that family. Wouldn't you?
Dr. Clinton: I would.
Dr. Dobson: You would protect them to the death.
Dr. Clinton: In a heartbeat.
Dr. Dobson: If you feel like I do, I think the greatest joy I've gotten in life is feeling like I'm responsible for that family. And I am providing for them to the best of my ability. And I care about every aspect of what takes place in that family.
Dr. Clinton: I think about it every day, every moment, pretty much of every day.
Dr. Dobson: I think men want to do that. They want to play that role, but it's been taken from them, and they're made to feel like fools.
Dr. Clinton: It's time. I think there's a Holy stirring that's going on. There's something happening. I think, who knows? The last couple of years, it's like culture is in this spin. The forgotten man, the forgotten woman, getting a voice in the midst of all of this saying, "Listen, we're not going this way. It's time for a turn. It's time for an uprising. It's time to stand up. It's time to take our place, our rightful place in this moment. If not us, who? If not now, when?" Those are the kinds of things. When you see in an invitation two, three, 4,000 men responding to the call from the Lord-
Dr. Dobson: Did you really have five thousand men there?
Dr. Clinton: We did. I'll tell you what, the altar call was stunning.
Dr. Dobson: Tell me about it.
Dr. Clinton: You should see all these men. I'm envisioning it right now, coming forward in droves. Rick Rigsby is speaking and gives the invitation. The altar is flooded. There are stories of men all over the place where they're hearing men audibly crying and weeping on their face before God, praying that God would help them in so many ways. "Help me to be a better dad. Help me to get over this porn addiction I have." So much more, "God do something right now in my heart." You know why? Because we opened up with a message that said, "Men matter." We opened up with a message that says, "Dads matter." And it's never too late to be a good father.
Dr. Clinton: You can step into that role even right now. God help us to do those things. That was the cry of the event because the messages were so poignant. They were so right there, saying, "Listen to me. You." It was like you are the only person in the audience, "You make all the difference in the world and your family." Our prayer is that that God will do something special, that only he can do. That God would stir, cause a Holy stir among men in this hour, and that there would be an uprising so that men would take their rightful place and that heaven would be blessed or glorified in this whole process.
Dr. Dobson: We're out of time. I wish we could take the time to pray now, but our time has gone, but we will be praying together. I'm asking those that are listening to us, pray for the men in your life this week. We need to be praying together because, we got to turn this thing around. We're going to lose the family if we don't get this straightened out, and only the Lord can do it. Thank you, Tim, for being here.
Dr. Clinton: Dr. Gibson, I'm so delighted to be here and we stand together on this issue.
Roger Marsh: An insightful program directed at men to encourage them to embrace their God-designed masculinity in spite of the attacks from the culture. I'm Roger Marsh, and you've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's riveting conversation with Dr. Tim Clinton today here on Family Talk. Now this was such an impactful program to me personally. I know it was probably one for you as well, so if you'd like a copy of this interview, be sure to go to today's broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org. Once you're there, you'll find the order-a-CD button and all you have to do is click on that button and we'll have a polished broadcast CD sent directly to you. That's drjamesdobson.org and then click onto today's broadcast page.
Roger Marsh: While you're on our website, I also encourage you to visit our helpful blog tab. There, you'll find numerous entries from Dr. Dobson, Dr. Tim Clinton, and several of our other past radio guests. Our bloggers write about issues relating to parenting, marriage, faith, and culture. Our mission is to truly support you in whatever area you may be struggling in, so take some time and read through some our uplifting blogs at drjamesdobson.org.
Roger Marsh: Now, another helpful resource you should check out is Dr. Dobson's valuable newsletter. Every month, Dr. Dobson writes his personal thoughts on issues facing the institution of the family. The newest edition of this work is a special one because it focuses on Father's Day. You'll want to read Dr. Dobson's June newsletter or pass it along to a dad or a role model in your life. You can request this latest issue without any further financial obligation. Simply call (877) 732-6825, and a member of our staff will be happy to mail you the latest edition. Again, that number is (877) 732-6825.
Roger Marsh: In addition, we'd love to hear your feedback on today's program, what you learned from it, or what you appreciated about it. You can do that by visiting Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk on Facebook. Once you're there, simply leave your thoughts on today's broadcast post. We appreciate hearing your feedback on how our programs are impacting you and your family. So find us on Facebook. That's facebook.com, and then search for Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
Roger Marsh: Finally, did you know that we have a comprehensive catalog of all of Dr. Dobson's work? When you go to the Dobson Digital Library, you can check it out, dobsonlibrary.com. We have compiled all of his articles, blogs, newsletters, and past radio programs as resources just for you. You can also search under the marriage, faith, parenting, and culture tabs to find what you need there as well. If you've been struggling to find practical help online for you and your family, I encourage you to go now to dobsonlibrary.com. That's dobsonlibrary.com. Tap into Dr. Dobson's years of knowledge on a wide variety of topics today, dobsonlibrary.com.
Roger Marsh: Well, that's all the time we have for today. Be sure to join us again next time as we wrap up our 10-year anniversary celebration. It's a fascinating program you won't want to miss coming your way next time on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
Dr. Clinton: Hi. This is Dr. Tim Clinton for the James Dobson Family Institute. Are you leaving a lasting and godly legacy? When you think about your family after you're gone, are you worried about them or are you confident they'll hold on to what you've taught them? At the Dobson Family Institute, we're committed to helping you understand the importance of passing on your faith, not only to your children, but to your children's children too. Check out drjamesdobson.org today for helpful hints, tips, and advice to help make this happen. Remember this, your legacy matters. Don't waste it.
Dr. Dobson: Here's a provocative question for you who needs the opposite sex more, males or females? For centuries, it's been believed that single women were the ones who were lost. They were called old maids or unclaimed blessings and worse. They were thought to be the most poorly adjusted and miserable people in the society. Therefore, they were subjected to much painful ridicule. Actually, research shows that it's the single man who's often out of kilter. Though there are numerous exceptions, and let's make that clear, an unmarried young man is far more likely than the single woman to be an alcoholic, a drug user or a convicted criminal.
Dr. Dobson: Landlords are often reluctant to rent an apartment to him. Banks prefer not to loan him money, and he pays a huge premium for car insurance. He's often hot tempered and impulsive, and he typically earns less money than the single woman, and is more likely to move aimlessly from job to job. But when a man marries and commits himself to a wife and children, most of these social liabilities disappear. He has a reason to live responsibly, to work hard and to save for the future. Instead of pandering to his own central desires, he postpones gratification and sacrifices for those who depend on him. What a woman does for a man then is to harness his sexual energy and to focus in on protecting and providing for a family. That's why he needs her even more than she needs him.
Roger Marsh: To hear more, visit our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org.
Dr. Clinton: Hey everyone, did you know that radio is more popular now than ever? A new feature here at Family Talk we're excited to announce. It's called the Station Finder Feature. This is Dr. Tim Clinton for Family Talk. I want to tell you how you can listen to our daily broadcast on a station near you. Go to the broadcast menu at drjamesdobson.O-R-G.org, then click on the Family Talk radio stations button. Once you're there, you can see an interactive map of radio affiliates, which by the way, is growing every day. Simply click on your home state, and then you'll see where our broadcast is airing in your town. Stop randomly spinning around the dial hoping to find Dr. Dobson and Family Talk. Go to drjamesdobson.org and take advantage of this brand new Station Finder Feature.