Roger Marsh: Hello, everyone and welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh. Today we present you with the insightful second half of a two-part interview on the topic of miscarriage and grief. Dr. Dobson sat down with two couples who have both experienced the enormous pain and incalculable loss of miscarriage, Dr. Walt Larimore and his wife, Barbara, along with Russ and June Gordon. Between them, these two married couples have lost six pre-born babies to miscarriage.
I think that we all have known someone who's gone through this. It's more common than you might think. As a matter of fact, 10 to 15% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage each and every year. You'll want to join us now for an important round table conversation on this topic, unflinching in its honesty, with hearts laid bare, by the couples who are willing to share their experiences and the hope that they found, led by our own Dr. James Dobson.
Now during the second half of his conversation with the Larimore's and the Gordons, Dr. Dobson examines some of the emotions that women in particular, and parents on the whole, often feel when they experience a miscarriage. There can be guilt and self-blame as well as hopelessness and depression. Dr. Dobson begins today's broadcast by addressing June Gordon. Let's go there now.
Dr. James Dobson: June, I hope it is not inappropriate for me to ask you this question, but I think it's all right. You had an abortion, didn't you?
June Gordon: Yes, I did.
Dr. James Dobson: Relate the emotion of that experience with the later loss of a child through miscarriage.
June Gordon: Well, because of the broadcast, of course, all this has come back in floods, and that was 25 years ago. I really thought I had worked through everything. I was 19. Abortion had just been legalized. I would never have considered myself a promiscuous person. I found myself in a situation I shouldn't have been in and made all the wrong choices. But in order to not bring any more disappointment to… My mother had died when I was four, so it was just my dad and I. I did tell him what had happened. Not being a believer, he thought the abortion was really the best answer to protect me. I didn't want to do that, but I didn't know what else to do.
June Gordon: I remember going through the phone book, and there were no crisis pregnancy centers that I recall. It was really just Planned Parenthood and those kinds of places, women's centers or whatever. When I went through and made the choices that I did, my first thought coming out of that... I remember screaming, "My baby, my baby," and just crying because even though I didn't understand what really happened... I mean, I knew, but I didn't know. Deep down within my soul, I knew that I had taken a life.
Years later, now we move ahead 12 years. I've come to the Lord. I've worked through the forgiveness. I know God had ministered to me His healing and all of that. You were doing a broadcast on the whole abortion, post abortion... I can never remember, post abortion-
Dr. Walt Larimore: Stress syndrome.
Dr. James Dobson: Syndrome, yes.
June Gordon: Stress syndrome. I remember all this stuff coming back up. I didn't understand what I was feeling. I knew I had dealt with the guilt, and forgiveness, and all those issues. When I was driving home from work, and God just... I mean, it's as if I could hear Him speaking, "You never grieved the loss of this baby." I had to be strong. I had to get through it, but I had never grieved.
Between the 20-minute drive from work to home, I grieved, and it was done. I remember a couple days later, listening again to the broadcast, and you talked about... It's about eight years when a woman starts to go through that syndrome. I started counting up. I thought, "That's been eight years." I had to go through this new understanding and work through that again.
Then I got pregnant with our first baby, and we were so excited. We had a big dinner and at a restaurant. They announced that we were pregnant. It was a music hall, Tippy's Music Hall. Our parents were there, and friends were there. We got up on stage, and we announced this big thing. A couple weeks later, I'm on bedrest. Two weeks later, I lose the baby. My first thought was, of course, guilt.
I think if there's a message that I want to give... I'm so willing to share this part of my life. I know that there's so many women, Christians and non-Christians, who had an abortion as a Christian or a non-Christian, who are sitting in guilt, and condemnation, and secrecy. They haven't told anybody. My heart breaks for them.
Dr. James Dobson: There may be tens of thousands right now who are listening to us, who are right where you were. I mean, we know 40 million babies have been lost since 1973. Many of those women have never dealt with it. They've never grieved. They've never asked for forgiveness. They've just shoved it down, and yet there is forgiveness. Does God forgive you?
June Gordon: Yes, absolutely. I am so grateful for the loving God that we have that it just takes recognizing our sin, calling it what it is. There's nothing in me that can say anything but that it was sin, but that God, in His grace, in His sovereignty, in His love, in His mercy, has forgiven me.
Dr. James Dobson: It's remembered against you no more.
June Gordon: That's right. That's right.
Dr. James Dobson: As far as the east is from the west.
June Gordon: That's right.
Dr. James Dobson: What an incredible gift.
June Gordon: What's really awesome is that I will see that baby in heaven. The most beautiful picture that God gave me was... Shortly after I became a Christian, God gave me a picture in my mind of Jesus holding a little lamb. That lamb literally transformed into a little baby. I knew that was my baby. When I had our first miscarriage, that came back again. I saw a little toddler holding Jesus's hand, and he was carrying a baby.
Then I had my second miscarriage and there was a... Actually, that child then would have been about 12. He kind of went from toddler to big, all of a sudden, in my mind. Now this older child was holding the hand of the toddler, holding the hand of Jesus, holding my other baby. I thought, how gracious God is to give me that hope, that I don't have to feel guilty, what I did was wrong. My heart breaks for women who feel like they have to make that kind of decision, whatever the reasons are. God is forgiving. I'm going to see my baby again.
Dr. James Dobson: Three of them.
June Gordon: Three of them. We have seven children.
Dr. James Dobson: Isn't that something?
June Gordon: I just can't believe it.
Dr. Walt Larimore: June, as I listen to you speaking, I'm impressed that you're rare. Here's what I mean. Dr. Dobson, the first thing that happens in virtually all women's hearts when they have a miscarriage is they start asking, "What did I do? Did I drink the wrong thing, eat the wrong thing, say the wrong thing?", and if you've had an abortion before, June, what do you think?
June Gordon: It's absolutely because of that.
Dr. Walt Larimore: It's because it's God is-
Dr. James Dobson: God is punishing you.
June Gordon: Is punishing me.
Dr. Walt Larimore: Punishing me. You overcame that, but many, many women haven't. Our enemy, the enemy of our souls, is using that to keep families suppressed from what they can be because they may believe in their head, but they haven't yet believed in their heart what you found, and that is that God loves us so much.
Dr. James Dobson: Walt, a hallmark of your character and personality is your compassion. Pray a prayer right now for those women that are there that have never found forgiveness. Maybe God has forgiven them, but they can't forgive themselves for an early abortion. There are a lot of women out there right now that need your compassionate prayer. Would you pray it?
Dr. Walt Larimore: Let's do. Father, thank you so much that you allow us to approach you boldly. Thank you for your love for us, that if we're just willing to admit where we've gone wrong, where we've left your will, you are so willing to forgive us. Not only that, your scripture says that you will separate that sin as far from us as east is from west, that we will be white as snow and scarlet no more in your eyes.
Father, for our listeners, our female listeners who have made the choice to have an abortion in the past and who are living with that burden and that stress, and Father, for the men in our audience who have pushed a woman to make this decision, could they at this minute just admit to you that they were wrong, and almost as if blowing out carbon dioxide, confess and rid themselves of that burden? Then breathe in, Father, just even now as we're praying, breathe in the freshness of your Holy Spirit, the forgiveness that you give them freely as a free gift to cover their sin.
Help them see themselves, Father, as you see them, pure and spotless, covered with the sacrifice of your Son. Father, begin today to use them because of this confession, to use them and bless them in helping others come to know you. Father God, I thank you for what you're doing all across the world as a result of this prayer and this program. In Jesus name.
Dr. James Dobson: Amen.
June Gordon: Amen.
Dr. James Dobson: It's a beautiful prayer. For the women who are listening to us who have struggled with guilt and with this memory of an abortion so long ago, you need carry it no more. You can let go of it. You don't have to go through life with that burden on your back. You can let it go, but only through God's forgiveness.
Dr. Walt Larimore: That's right.
Roger Marsh: You're listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. We are in the middle of Dr. Dobson's conversation with two couples, Walt and Barbara Larimore and Russ and June Gordon, focusing on the delicate topic of miscarriage. For a tragedy that occurs so frequently, miscarriage is rarely discussed, and yet it causes extraordinary grief and pain for both parents. On today's program, Dr. Dobson and his guests are discussing the grief associated with miscarriage, giving advice for the healing process and how to honor the life of the child that was lost. Let's continue that conversation right now.
Dr. James Dobson: Barb, did you at any point blame yourself for one reason or another?
Barbara Larimore: Oh, I did. I think it was after the third one. I just wondered what I had done wrong, what I hadn't eaten, how I hadn't exercised. Where had my body failed me? I did not have the understanding that I have today, that I had a defect in my uterus that would not allow the fertilized egg and sperm to implant and then to grow. Yes, I did do a lot of blaming of myself.
Dr. James Dobson: How'd you deal with that?
Barbara Larimore: Oh, not very well at all. I was angry. I lashed out. I wanted to stay in bed all the time. I was unable to concentrate. I was not directed. I was, last but not least, just very, very angry at God for doing this to me.
Dr. James Dobson: Walt, did you understand that?
Dr. Walt Larimore: I experienced it. Russ, I think it's common for us guys to experience it. Most of us hide it. Some of us make the mistake of blaming our wife, of asking her, "Well, what did you do to cause this?" not realizing that the vast majority of miscarriages are not caused by anything that we said or did. I remember the first time we were in a grocery store and coming down the aisle was a mom with a little baby. To see, Barb, the anger in your eyes, and you turned, and you went the other way. You weren't able to enjoy other couples having children and to be there with them.
Dr. James Dobson: When Shirley was pregnant with Danae, we spent probably six months getting ready for her arrival. We had everything that we could prepare. We had the crib. We had the nursery that was decorated. Shirley and I hung the wallpaper ourselves. We had mobiles. We had everything. What do you do with all of that when you suddenly don't have a purpose for it?
Barbara Larimore: Well, I was so gun shy that I never had a nursery set up. I would walk into the room where I knew the baby would be. I would visualize where I would put the crib and where the changing table would be. I never physically could bring myself to set up a nursery at all.
Dr. James Dobson: Even with the first miscarriage?
Barbara Larimore: The first miscarriage was early on at about eight weeks.
Dr. James Dobson: I see.
Barbara Larimore: The ones after that, miscarriages two, three, and four, were anywhere from 12 to 16 weeks.
Dr. James Dobson: You couldn't allow yourself to hope, could you?
Barbara Larimore: I would not allow myself to even hope.
Dr. James Dobson: I would really like to go back to my book, When God Doesn't Make Sense, and say to those who are out there, don't try to answer that question.
Dr. Walt Larimore: You can't.
June Gordon: That's right.
Dr. James Dobson: If God wanted you to answer it, He would have given you more information than He's given you. It's not your responsibility to make the pieces fit. All through life, there will be situations where it makes no sense to you. You can't somehow get it all explained. Then you've got it in a little neat package. You can't do that, and yet we try to force it.
Furthermore, our Christian friends try to force it. They say, "Your baby died because God wanted this little baby in His garden." Oh, baloney. That's horrible to say something like that, that the compassionate God of the universe would reach down and take your baby away because He wanted it in His garden. That's crazy, and yet we say foolish things to each other. We accuse each other of sin. We do all kinds of things at the very moment when you most need somebody to say, "God loves you. He cares. He's there. Just accept it. Go with it. Someday you will understand."
Barbara Larimore: And that He weeps with you.
Dr. Walt Larimore: Yes, that's right.
Barbara Larimore: His heart is broken for you. When you're crying, and you're sad, and you're missing your baby, He feels that with you. He wants to comfort us.
Dr. James Dobson: June, where you angry at God?
June Gordon: I don't remember being angry. I remember being confused. I think the one part of my faith that has been strong is that either I believe God's word is true or I don't. I can question it because that's a normal thing. I have got to choose to trust God no matter what, whether I understand it or I don't.
When I went through all of that, I remember being very confused. I remember being very afraid that I had done something, that it's because of the sin of my past or whatever. Mostly, I remember, honestly, I felt victory. I remember being on bedrest for a couple of weeks, and people calling me. I remember crying. I remember being fearful. I remember I would always say, "But I feel victorious."
Dr. James Dobson: The Christian way of life can give that. In the midst of the greatest sorrow of your entire life, there is a peace that's there. It passes-
June Gordon: Passes all understanding.
Dr. James Dobson: Understanding.
Russ Gordon Our faith definitely grew from the time of the first miscarriage to the time of the second miscarriage, which probably explains why it was somewhat easier for us to deal with. We grew to trust God. After watching this little baby born so early struggling for life, and the outcome was incredible, that this kid came home, and he was thriving, and all the things they said would happen to him didn't happen, God took care of those things. When the miscarriage happened, although it was difficult, we knew that God had demonstrated His faithfulness, so it made it easier. It did. There was no question about it.
Dr. Walt Larimore: Don't try to handle this yourself. You weren't made to handle it yourself. God made us to minister to each other. Jim, you point that out in your book, When God Doesn't Make Sense, that God gave us to each other to pray for each other, to comfort each other, and to minister to each other. For our listeners, men and women, don't try to carry this sack by yourself.
Russ Gordon: I'm just reminded of Romans 12:15. I think this is the call of the Christian Church. That is, "Rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn." I think if we could just do that as a church, we would bring so much healing to these folks who have lost these babies. It would just be amazing, what we'd see.
Dr. James Dobson: Let me share three other verses that have meant a lot to me in my dealing with people. These verses should be written down. If you're going to be trying to help people going through any kind of difficulty, you ought to remember these. My favorite is from Psalms 34:18. "The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit." Man, what a compassionate Lord we serve. Psalms 35: B, "Weeping may remain for a night, but rejoicing comes in the morning." Then Hebrews 13:5 "Never will I leave you. Never will I forsake you." You point to that one. That's-
June Gordon: Definitely one of our favorites. We have a few too.
Dr. James Dobson: Walt, do you and Barb have a favorite too? You had mentioned it before. What is it?
Barbara Larimore: My favorite is from Isaiah, and it's Isaiah 40:11. It says, "He tends His flock like a shepherd. He gathers the lambs in his arms, and He carries them close to His heart. He gently leads those that have young." That was especially meaningful to me because after that fourth miscarriage, He did take me into his arms. He carried me close to his heart for a number of months because that last miscarriage was just devastating.
Dr. James Dobson: June, you have some scriptures.
June Gordon: Yes. The one that has been really meaningful to us, especially since we've started this ministry, is out of Matthew. It's Matthew 18:10. "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I say to you that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of my Father who is in heaven."
I just see these angels holding these precious babies. God is looking lovingly into their eyes. He's loving them. He's beholding them. He's comforting them. I think one of the things that comes to my mind the most when I think of people who are hurting in this area is that God didn't turn, and sneeze, and forget you and your baby. He does have a plan and a purpose, and we don't always understand what that is. He loves us, and He cares.
Dr. James Dobson: You just think of those three little children-
June Gordon: I do. I can't wait.
Dr. James Dobson: That are waiting for you. A phrase that I've used before... It's not original to me, but I think it's a beautiful phrase. There was a time, June and Barb, when you had hoped to introduce your children to Jesus, but now your children will introduce Jesus to you.
June Gordon: That's right. I hope.
Dr. James Dobson: Isn't that a beautiful thing?
Dr. Walt Larimore: Yes, it is.
Barbara Larimore: That is beautiful.
Dr. James Dobson: Well, I appreciate you all sharing as such an emotional topic like this in such a transparent way. I trust that the Lord will continue to draw near to you and allow you to minister to those who are still hurting. We love you all and appreciate you being with us.
June Gordon: Thank you, Dr. Dobson.
Dr. Walt Larimore: Thank you, Dr. Dobson.
Roger Marsh: I'm Roger Marsh. You've just heard the conclusion of Dr. Dobson's candid, emotional conversation with Walt and Barbara Larimore and Russ and June Gordon today, here on Family Talk. We hope you found encouragement in the stories and scriptures that our guests and Dr. Dobson shared on today's program.
Hundreds of thousands of women experience miscarriages every year, and the grief is undeniable. If you are currently going through a difficult time right now, may I suggest you pick up a copy of Dr. Dobson's book called When God Doesn't Make Sense? In it, he offers assurance of God's constant care, even when human suffering seems to be beyond our comprehension. I think you'll find this tangible advice and compassionate words to be a comfort to you.
Now for more information about that book, visit us online at drjamesdobson.org. In fact, if you'd like to hear any part of the broadcast you might've missed today, or if you'd like to hear yesterday's edition of the program, you can also go to our broadcast page as well at D-R, Jamesdobson.org/broadcast. While you're online with us, remember you can also order a CD copy of this two-part broadcast as well.
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Finally, one last thing before we go, remember we've created a special series for moms. I mean, raising kids, maintaining a healthy marriage, finding some sort of balance through it all... A mom's work truly never ends: running a home, earning a paycheck, providing for your family. Now even though we can't give you superpowers or create more hours in a day, we can't offer some time-tested truths and encouragement to help you be the best mom you can be.
That's why we're inviting you right now to sign up for the Empowering Moms series. Each and every day, you'll receive practical parenting advice packed with timeless scriptural truths and a prayer to renew and inspire you. Now it's easy to sign up. Just go to drjamesdobson.org. That's D-R, Jamesdobson.org. From Dr. and Mrs. Dobson and all of us here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, I'm Roger Marsh. Thank you for listening. Join us again next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
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