Roger Marsh: Well, welcome back to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks so much for making us a part of your Thursday. On today's program, we're going to hear the conclusion of a powerful conversation featuring Pastor Tim Timberlake and our own Dr. Tim Clinton. They'll be discussing Pastor Timberlake's testimony and his soon-to-be released book called The Art of Overcoming. Which, by the way, is coming out on May 16th. Now, this episode was recorded while they were backstage at the Men's Ignite Impact weekend in Virginia this past March. Tim Timberlake is an author and the senior pastor of Celebration Church in Jacksonville, Florida. You may know him from his other books, the Power of 1440 and Abandon. Tim and his wife Jen have one son, Maxwell and they make their home in Florida. Let's rejoin this encouraging conversation featuring Tim Timberlake and our own Dr. Tim Clinton right now, right here, on Family Talk.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, welcome back. What a delight to have you. What a day yesterday. Fun conversation and again, so looking forward to what you've got to share today. Tim, we know this, in the journey of life, there are two types of stressors. One is what we call horizontal stressors. Natural things that just we come up against. Lose a job maybe. Deal with the loss of a friendship. Everyday pressures that come our way.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Life's full of them.
Tim Timberlake: Yep.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Then there are vertical stressors. Things that come in out of nowhere.
Tim Timberlake: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: And they blow up everything. Tim, when life gets all blown up, we don't feel safe anymore. We use the word trauma. You lose your sense of being.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: And you don't feel like you can trust anything.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, that describes a lot of where people are today.
Tim Timberlake: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: They need hope. They need help. They need clarity. They need to be able to see.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah. The day and time that we live in is so hard on the mental health aspect of humanity, because everything is flying at us so fast. I asked my mother, Tim, a year ago, "Is life harder now than it was when you were growing up as a little girl? And all these different things were happening." Segregation was happening. She was in a segregated school for so long and experienced extreme hardship when she lost her mom at 15. Her father was an abusive alcoholic and grew up in her aunt and uncle's home who raised her as her parents. And she said something to me so profound. She said, "Life is harder now because you hear how hard life is for so many other people, so often, so quickly." And when we think about that, we take on every single day, not just our pressures, but the pressures of society and culture.
In an instant, we know everyone's problems that we're connected to.
Dr. Tim Clinton: That's true.
Tim Timberlake: And we're not meant to absorb all of those problems. We can't carry our own problems. Nonetheless, carry the problems of 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 other people to navigate through this life. And so I think that we're living in an unprecedented time. I believe that, like all great ships, we need a captain to lead us. And I think that we have to discover that there is no hope outside of Jesus. But with Jesus there's the greatest hope that we could ever know. And I hold true to the words that are in the word of God. "With man there's some things that are possible, but with God, all things are possible to those that believe." And so my encouragement to those that are listening right now is simply put your hope back in the hands of Jesus, because it's far greater in His hands than it is in mine.
If the grief, if the depression, if the stress remains in my hands, I'll think I can carry it and it will overwhelm me. If I put it in the hands of Jesus, Jesus will overwhelm it. It's always better in the hands of Jesus. And just because it's over our head, it does not mean that it is over God's. It's under His feet. And so I just want to encourage our listeners, take whatever pain that you are wrestling with, whatever pain you're dealing with, and put it in the hands of Jesus. Because He knows what to do with it and He can handle whatever you're carrying far greater than you ever could.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, you have a new book coming out. The Art of Overcoming: Letting God Turn Your Endings into Beginnings. Our friends at Word Publishing, Thomas Nelson. Tim in it you talk about a framework to help look at dealing with loss, death experiences. And you use the concept of funeral in a unique way.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Help us understand why that is, and then let's start on this journey about how we overcome. And you call it an Art of Overcoming.
Tim Timberlake: That's right. So when you really think about the death of something, Tim, it's a time for us to acknowledge. It's a time for us to honor. It's a time for us to mourn what was, but understanding that life still goes on. We cannot stay looking at what has died. Whether it's a past pain, whether it's past trauma, whether it's a past event. We can't stay in that moment because something that was meant to hurt us one time, can hurt us a lifetime. If we go back to revisit it and continue to rip the scab off of it, it will never heal. And so this book, The Art of Overcoming, it takes us on this journey of looking at those little deaths, what I call them throughout the book. Acknowledging that those things and that season did exist, honoring the good moments from those things, but burying the things that we know need to stay in our past so that we never have to go back through that type of pain again.
And the reason it's called The Art of Overcoming is because we never overcome the same thing or anything the same way that we did before. There's an art to it. And just like an artist in the middle of his painting, if he was to ask us, "What do you think about this?" We would be confused and say, "I don't know what I'm looking at." The artist knows where he's going with this art. And God is the greatest artist to ever create anything. And oftentimes in the middle of what He's painting, in the middle of the story that He's writing, we get so confused by what we're looking at. But God says, "Can you trust me? Do you believe that this is going to work out for the good of those that love me? Do you believe that I have the plan working that I've designed and desired for your life? And if you can trust me, you'll see how you'll come out of this greater and better than you did before you went into it." And that's why this book is called The Art of Overcoming.
Dr. Tim Clinton: In that quest of overcoming, living with death is not fun. When I started studying about grief and loss, heard a statement, "Becoming winners at the fine art of losing."
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I'm watching an elderly couple right now and I'm beginning to realize that their life is defined by loss.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Losing the ability to drive, not able to "go with their group's physical capabilities." And constant loss. Tim, take us into a perspective on grief and loss. And I've learned this too, that there are some things we're losing that we love dearly.
Tim Timberlake: Yes.
Dr. Tim Clinton: You talked about losing your dad.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: And I've learned this, that those who love much, grieve much.
Tim Timberlake: Yes.
Dr. Tim Clinton: It's a journey.
Tim Timberlake: It is. And I think for all of us listening, understanding and acknowledging the pain that we experience because of the loss. Whether it's a loved one or whether it's something or season, we have a tendency of skirting past dealing with pain. Because pain is portrayed as weak. I believe one of the most beautiful things that we could do is acknowledge pain, but keep our faith strong in the midst of it. Pain is both hard and holy at the same time. Think about this, Tim. Jesus knowing he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead, still wept with Mary and Martha. He still allowed himself...
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yeah, he did.
Tim Timberlake: To feel the pain of his friend dying, because he understood that pain pushes us closer to God. It brings us closer to the heart of God. And understanding if this thing is going to be walked out in any type of way, it should help strengthen our faith. It should help refine us. It should help our anchor sink deeper in the hope of God. And those things cannot be done unless we endure, survive, overcome pain with the help of Jesus. But the first thing that we have to do is acknowledge that it does exist.
Dr. Tim Clinton: It exists. And that He's in the midst of it. It's so hard though. Because again, pain can blind your eyes.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Pain can take away the gift of healing. The new life that's there. Tim, if it's hard for me to release it, if I'm wallowing in my sorrow, what do I do?
Tim Timberlake: The first thing that I encourage people to do, as hard as it is, it's release what you're carrying from your hand. We have two options in this life, Tim. We can either cast it or we can carry it. But we cannot do both. We're not built to carry the pain, the hardship, the feeling of oppression, the feeling of depression that we sometimes try to. Jesus says though, when we cast it, His words. It's, "Cast your cares on me because I care." That word "I care" means I care more about it than you ever could. I care more about you than you care for yourself. I care more about the season and the problem and the test and the trial and the sickness than you do. "Cast your cares on me because I care." And in this life we can't carry it and cast it. We have to cast it at the feet of Jesus. And not only does Jesus make it better, but Jesus makes us stronger.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, that's a hard thing to do though. Because somewhere it's just like, I don't want to get up. I hate this new normal conversation.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I'm sick of all that stuff. I hear everybody telling me that, "That's not what I want. That's not what I asked for." That's where people are.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah. We have to understand that life may not get better, but you get stronger. One of the greatest things I think I learned through the death of my father is that that pain still lives with me some 20 years later. I still remember it, just like it was yesterday. I remember the touch of his hand on my leg. I remember the voice of my father speaking into my ear, my soul, my spirit. I remember his voice. I can still smell how he smelled. That pain does not ever leave. But what changes is, I get stronger every single day. I remember how my hope is not found in man, it's found in God. And I've become a better son to God than I ever could experiencing the pain and the loss of my father. Because now all I want to do is please my Heavenly Father.
You know, something so incredible I found in scripture after the loss of my father. The word of God says that, "Jesus has endured and encountered all pain, all temptation, the same that we've encountered." And I sit there, I said, "But man, Jesus never endured this pain. He never endured the pain of losing a parent. God is his Father." He was hung on the cross before Mary. It says, "Mary was at the foot of the cross with John." And then it dawned on me, Tim. If Mary was at the foot of the cross with John, where was Joseph? Because Joseph would've been there.
In that particular day and time, the parents were there for the crucifixion or the punishment or penalty for their kids. If Joseph would've been alive, he would've been at the foot of the cross with Mary. But he had already died. And so here Jesus is, having all authority, having all power to resurrect His father from the dead, but He couldn't. So that He could identify with my pain and know that what I'm going through, I have hope in Him to walk it out with me. Because he's already walked it out before me. When I grabbed the whole of that revelation and that concept, it changed my perspective. I knew I no longer have to walk in pain, through pain, endure pain alone. Jesus understands and identifies with this pain. And He desires to strengthen me through it.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, when you were talking about your dad, my mind was flooded with thoughts of my own father who, again, was a pastor. And you said you could smell. My dad would periodically wear that Brute cologne. And he also always carried a little bottle of Binaca...
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: For his breath in his pocket.
Tim Timberlake: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: He'd throw that Binaca in his mouth. One day, what he did is he grabbed his Brute cologne thinking it was his Binaca, and threw the Brute cologne in his mouth. He was spitting all over the place, man. But my dad would put his arms around us, he would love on us. He was the kindest man, Tim, I'd ever met in my whole life. And like you, I was bedside with my dad when he slipped into eternity. Holding onto his hand and saying, "Dad, you are a good father. You, dad, I love you." I prayed Psalm 23 over him in those moments. And you're right. God has to put a bridge over it. Those things don't disappear.
Tim Timberlake: That's right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: And then somehow God takes that mourning and turns it into a whole new way of life. One of my last conversations with my dad, and I know we're working our way down through the funeral, if you will. Living with death and the processional, we're going to talk about the eulogy next, how we memorialize or honor what we've lost. And how the process of grief needs to be done in a healthy way. One of the things my dad gave to me as a gift was. He said, "Tim, hear me. My ministry started with my family. It's ended with my family. Tim, don't miss what I just said. Tim, it's because of Him. Son, I want you to hear me. I'll see you again."
Tim Timberlake: That's right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: "I will. And you journey with God every day of your life, and I promise you, you'll be blessed." And I'm going to tell you what, I can still hear him. I can see him looking at me...
Tim Timberlake: That's right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Right now.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Saying that...
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: As a blessing over me.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: You hear what I'm saying?
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, somewhere in this, we've got to process to that place. We've got to go from the darkness and into holding on to the only thing we can hold onto.
Tim Timberlake: That's right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: And to bask in the light of Christ.
Tim Timberlake: We have to. And I think you said something so powerful. "Somewhere in the darkness." And when you're surrounded by darkness, you can't tell which way is up, which way is down. You have to find the light. It's just like when we squint our eyes, we close our eyes and it's completely dark. If you focus hard enough, you'll see light. Our brains are fixed for it. Our brains are pre-wired for it. So is our spirit. The word of God says, "Take you this mind", in Philippians which was also in Christ Jesus who do not consider Himself a robber to be equal with God. Our mind turns pictures right side up. Our eyes originally see pictures upside down.
It's our mind, our brain that takes those pictures that we take in and it flips those images right side up. The mind of Christ is the same way for us. When life gets upside down, when life flips on us, when life turns on us, it's supplying the mind of Christ that turns it right side up. So that we could see Jesus and the light of Jesus in and through every situation and circumstance. That's where we have to get back to. That's the hope of Jesus that we have to desperately search out for in the midst of pain.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, we're fighting time and we got to press toward closure.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: And I think that's your final point, really. And that is ultimately we need to understand and discover that life exists after death.
Tim Timberlake: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yeah. That which we've held onto that we can't hold onto, God somehow sculpts into a new day, a beginning, if you will.
Tim Timberlake: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, bring us to that close with deep encouragement. Remind us we're going to get through this.
Tim Timberlake: You absolutely will. And my prayer is that you don't just get through it. You get stronger through it. Our lives are not meant to just survive. Our lives are meant for significance. And my prayer is that you will understand how significant of a life God has called you to live. Even in the midst of pain. And so, I was praying one day, Tim, and God birthed this revelation in me. The only way a king or queen can become king or queen, is that a king or queen has to die. And I believe that for us to step into the positions and to the places and in the seasons that God is calling us to, we have to honor the past and pioneer the future. And it doesn't mean that the ending does not hurt. But it means that in that ending, we acknowledge that life is being birthed into something unique, different.
And because of that uniqueness and difference, it is in fact special. And so I encourage our listeners to lean into the pain, not by yourself, not with your opinion, not with your understanding, but with Jesus. With His revelation and with His word. And when we do that, He gives meaning to the pain and He allows us to get stronger through it.
Dr. Tim Clinton: He will see you through. One of Dr. Dobson's heroes, Winston Churchill once said, as he was working to form the United Nations after World War II, "Never let a good crisis go to waste." In other words, God by the way, never wastes a wound. He'll take it and sculpt new life. Hey Tim, just wondering, we reflected on our dad's. I wonder what your dad would be thinking or what would he say right now as he takes a little peak at what God's doing in and through you?
Tim Timberlake: I think that my dad would say his most significant work and his most significant ministry and success, is seeing his kids point people to Jesus. His whole philosophy was, "Legacy is not what I leave for you. Legacy is what I leave in you." And he's left some incredible eternal revelation in his children that are now pointing people all over the world to Jesus. And so I think that's what he would be most proud of. I think that's what he would say.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, what a delight to have you. To hear your heart, your passion, your love for Christ, your love for scripture. And to see how your life is hid in that. To hear of the beautiful story that God has woven in your own life and how it's taken you to a place where, I pray, millions of people will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. And Tim, congratulations on your new book, The Art of Overcoming.
Tim Timberlake: Thank you.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Letting God turn your endings into beginnings. By the way, some things are necessary endings.
Tim Timberlake: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Tim, hey, before we go, a lot of people are probably wondering, how in the world do I find out more about Tim Timberlake. And by the way, the new book, The Art of Overcoming?
Tim Timberlake: Yeah. You can find all of that information on the new book, The Art of Overcoming at theartofovercomingbook.com. You can find all of my contacts and how to reach me at timtimberlake.tv.
Dr. Tim Clinton: And do they stream Celebration Church?
Tim Timberlake: Yes. You can go onto YouTube. Either Tim Timberlake or Celebration Church and find our services there. We have live services every Sunday at 9:00 AM or you can find every service archived at the Celebration Church YouTube.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Closing thought from you, my friend.
Tim Timberlake: Yeah. I think that we don't get what we hope for, we get what we plan for. And when we plan to go through the different things that we will go through with Jesus, we're planning for victory. Glory doesn't look good on us. It looks great on God. Victory looks good on us. And when we give God glory, God gives us victory. And so today, practice that. Practice giving God the glory and watch how He elevates you through victory.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I want to close with Romans 8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good. To those who love Him, who love God, and who are called according to His purposes." And God, we hold on to that promise. "And He who spared not His own son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him freely give us all things. Therefore, you are more than conquerors, overcomers...
Tim Timberlake: That's right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Through Him that loved us." And there is not one thing that will ever separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Praise God.
Tim Timberlake: Amen.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Pastor Tim Timberlake, what a delight to have you join us here on Family Talk. On behalf of Dr. Dobson, his wife, Shirley, the entire team, we'll pray that God will continue to strengthen your heart. And that He'll embolden you to a whole nother level. To be courageous, to be strong for such a time as this. Thank you for joining us.
Tim Timberlake: Thank you, Tim.
Roger Marsh: God is the greatest artist. Amen. I hope today's program was inspiring to you and that was the conclusion of the two-part conversation featuring Pastor Tim Timberlake and our own Dr. Tim Clinton here on Family Talk. Now, if you'd like to share today's message with someone who needs to hear it, or if you'd like to go back and listen to it again in its entirety, just visit drjamesdobson.org/familytalk. That's drjamesdobson.org/familytalk. Remember, Family Talk is a listener supported Christian radio outreach. It's only because of you and your prayers and faithful financial support that we are able to bring quality content to you and your family each and every day. Now, to find out more about how you can support the JDFI, please visit drjamesdobson.org.
And while you're there, remember, you can also learn how we can support you as well. We always love to hear from you. Let us know how we are doing to help your family. Or if you have any comments or questions, you can go online at drjamesdobson.org. Or give us a call at 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825. I'm Roger Marsh. Please join us again tomorrow for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. Till then, may God continue to richly bless you and your family.
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.