Roger Marsh: Well, welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh and today's classic program touches on the subject of abortion. Therefore, before we get started, I want to mention that today's broadcast is not meant for younger listeners. Parental discretion definitely advised.
Now since Roe v. Wade was passed in 1973, more than 63 million babies have been aborted in their mother's wombs. But since the historic overturning of that ruling in June of 2022, more than 30,000 babies' lives have been saved, but the fight is far from over. Our guests on today's program are Dr. Robert Jackson Jr. and his wife, Carlotta Jackson. In Dr. Jackson's second year of his medical residency, he was asked to induce premature labor for a woman who was 22 weeks pregnant. At that stage of development, a baby weighs about one pound and is about 11 inches long. Now, Dr. Jackson refused to assist in the abortion, but sadly, another doctor did not. Dr. Jackson remembers hearing the baby's cries before finally passing away. This horrific experience led him to become a voice for the voiceless and to defend the lives of the preborn.
Currently, Dr. Robert Jackson Jr. is a Bible teacher and a family doctor with a career spanning over 35 years. He earned his medical degree from the Medical University of South Carolina. Dr. Jackson is also an author of the book entitled, The Family Doctor Speaks: The Truth About Life, which he also discusses on today's program. Robert and his wife Carlotta have nine grown children. Let's join Dr. James Dobson now and his special guests, Dr. Robert Jackson and his wife, Carlotta Jackson for this classic edition of Family Talk.
Dr. James Dobson: Since the infamous Roe v. Wade decision by the U.S. Supreme Court on January 22, 1973, which legalized abortion for any purpose throughout nine months of pregnancy, many people don't know that, nationwide, nearly 60 million children have been murdered in the United States, and I use that word advisedly. They have been murdered, and it doesn't stop there. Let me give you some statistics.
Each year in America, we abort approximately 1.2 million babies. The highest year was in 1990 when 1.43 million babies were aborted, and that was according to CDC. According to the National Right to Life, 3,000 children are killed every day, and some of them within three blocks of my house where a Planned Parenthood facility sits. In 2014, 24% of the women from ages 15 to 44 had an abortion. Can you believe that? 24%. And 45.9% of abortions in 2014 were to women who had never married. The U.S. Abortion rate is the highest among developed countries.
Now, I don't know about you, but those numbers take my breath away and we must stop at nothing to purge this evil from our culture and save the innocent lives that are now at risk. I mean, these are human beings at stake with infinite potential. Now, today you're going to hear from a family doctor who has fought for over 30 years in the operating room and his own doctor's office for the right for the unborn. His name is Dr. Robert Jackson Jr. and he is a practicing physician at Westgate Family Physicians in Spartanburg, South Carolina. He's come all that way. Flew here to Colorado Springs to be with us, along with his wife Carlotta, who is also joining us today.
Dr. Jackson was honored by many groups through the years. He's been married again, I reference Carlotta, for nearly 40 years and they have nine children. Dr. Jackson, you obviously have a passion for unborn children and for life in general. What is the origin of that? What's the source of it? Have you always felt that way since you graduated from medical school?
Dr. Robert Jackson: Well, that's a long story, Dr. Dobson. It's an interesting story. I have to admit that when I was in college and medical school, I was like a lot of Christian folks. I had a nonchalant attitude towards the abortion issue. But when I became a resident, as a family practice resident, several things happened in my life that propelled me into becoming a pro-life advocate. The first thing that happened is I was taking care of a woman in the middle of a miscarriage at the regional hospital where I was training, and as you know, most times when a woman delivers in a miscarriage, what's delivered is just a little bit of blood and tissue and nothing that's really definable as an infant. But this particular day as I was taking care of this woman in the middle of a miscarriage, what was delivered into my hand was a perfectly formed little 12-week baby in an intact bag of water in the amniotic sac.
I was completely amazed to see this little 12-week baby, three-fourths the length of my hand in this bag of water and this baby was alive, Dr. Dobson, and moving in my hand. A perfectly formed miniature human being in my hand. The mother raised up, she saw her baby in my hand, and then all of a sudden the bag of water broke and that little baby just shriveled up and died in my hand. The mother began to weep and I have to admit, it drew a big sob out of me. Now I held that over to the nurse and I said, "What is that?" And she said, "Dr. Jackson, that's a baby." And I said, "That's what I thought." Because at that time, I had been doing a little bit of research and I realized that there was an abortion clinic in Greenville, South Carolina, just 40 miles away from me that was performing over 35,000 abortions a year on little children exactly that size and gestation, and that was very disturbing to me.
Dr. James Dobson: What year would that have been?
Dr. Robert Jackson: That was in about 1984 or '85. Yes, sir.
Dr. James Dobson: So Roe v. Wade had happened in 1973.
Dr. Robert Jackson: Yes, sir.
Dr. James Dobson: Did that have an impact on you?
Dr. Robert Jackson: When Roe v. Wade happened, I was a high school senior and it really had no impact on my life at that time. Nobody was talking about it, no discussion. It just went right past me.
Dr. James Dobson: Let me tell you what it did to me. I was at USC School of Medicine, I was a professor of pediatrics and I was driving home. I was on the freeway in Los Angeles. I remember exactly where I was and I was listening to the radio when I heard about Roe v. Wade. I was deeply affected by it because I knew it meant millions and millions of children would die, and I gasped when I heard it. I didn't even know that the Supreme Court was about to issue such a decision. I thought, "Well, I can't wait till Sunday to see what my pastor says about it." And Sunday came and went and he didn't say anything about it. He's a good, godly man, a great pastor, but he did not mention it, nor did the pastors of surrounding churches. It was like it didn't happen.
Dr. Robert Jackson: I think it caught the evangelical community flat-footed and it did so for months and years. One of my medical partner's wife was a nurse working in an operating room in Chicago, and she told me that the day after Roe v. Wade passed, that every operating suite in their hospital was booked for abortion procedures for days. They had no other procedures, no gallbladders, no appendectomies, no other procedures except for abortion procedures for days.
Dr. James Dobson: Let's talk about the book because that's why you're here. The title of it is The Family Doctor Speaks: The Truth About Life. You talk in this book about the horrors of abortion. Explain for those who don't know what those disturbing aspects are.
Dr. Robert Jackson: Well, Dr. Dobson, one of the things that propelled me into pro-life work was when I was in my second year of residency training. A woman came into the hospital who had a child with hydrocephalus or water on the brain, and the doctors persuaded her that the best thing for her was to have an induced abortion. I was asked to give a prostaglandin suppository that would induce abortion, and I of course declined to do that. Another doctor came into the hospital to give that prostaglandin suppository, and overnight she went into labor and she delivered a 22-week prematurely born infant that was wrapped in a cold wet towel and laid in a metal basin and abandoned to die. It took several hours for that little child to die. I remember walking through the fifth floor of that hospital on the labor and delivery floor and hearing that little baby crying as it was giving its last gasping breaths before it died.
Dr. James Dobson: Alone.
Dr. Robert Jackson: Alone, abandoned. The mother was across the floor and across the hall and she was wailing. I remember going through by the nurse's station and there were three nurses in there hugging each other and weeping. And I was devastated, Dr. Dobson, to see that child aborted, prematurely born, induced by abortion and abandoned to die. And it broke my heart. And I know that it grieved the great heart of God to see that little baby aborted. And that scenario is played out so many thousands of times every day in the United States of America and the blood of the unborn children runs in the streets of America. And it's imperative that we as right-thinking, God-fearing people wake up and realize what's happening in our country.
Dr. James Dobson: There has just not been the support for life and for that matter, for families generally. There are lobbyists all over the place for everything you can imagine, down to the possum growers of America and yet there is not support for the institution of the family. Since 1969, married couples pay higher taxes than those who are living together without benefit of marriage. That has been all the way from 1969 until George W. Bush stopped it for a short period of time and then President Obama stepped in and reimposed it and now it's back.
Dr. Robert Jackson: Yeah. Well, when I speak in churches, I tell church folks all the time that our legislators don't see the light until they feel the heat and it's imperative-
Dr. James Dobson: Yeah, so ultimately, we are voting for those people.
Dr. Robert Jackson: That's right. And we have to write our legislators, we have to call them. We have to keep the heat on them and let them know how we feel about this abortion issue.
Dr. James Dobson: In your book, you talk about the number one reason women get an abortion. What is it?
Dr. Robert Jackson: The number one reason is convenience. Most women who obtain abortions in America today is because they simply do not want to be pregnant at that moment. The statistics show that 98% of abortions in America are what we call convenience abortions. Now, there are a lot of reasons why women seek abortions. They don't have a husband, they don't have a boyfriend, they don't have insurance, they may be in the middle of an academic pursuit. There are all manner of reasons. But listen, the bottom line is this, Dr. Dobson, no matter how difficult, no matter how desperate those circumstances are, none of those difficult circumstances justify the killing of an innocent unborn human being.
We must ask ourselves one question, what grows in the mother's womb? Is it a potential human being or is it a human being with enormous potential? Because you see, if that which grows in the mother's womb is just a potential human being, then an abortion procedure is no different from an appendectomy or removing a gallbladder. But listen, if that which grows in the mother's womb is a human being with enormous potential created in the image of God, special in God's economy, one for whom the very son of God died on a cruel Roman cross, then none of us should lay our head on the pillow any night until we have satisfied our conscience that we have done everything within our personal resource to stop what amounts to the wholesale slaughter of innocent, unborn human beings.
Dr. James Dobson: Dr. Jackson, do you speak as candidly to a woman who comes to you and asks for your opinion?
Dr. Robert Jackson: I do, sir. I tell them the truth.
Dr. James Dobson: Has that brought great heat on you and criticism?
Dr. Robert Jackson: It can, but most of my patients know who I am. They know where I come from. They know what I stand for. And so the Bible tells us that we should speak the truth in love and balancing that is a difficult thing for all of us. Only Jesus did it perfectly and you know where that got him. He ended up on the cross, you see. And so there's always complications in life when you and I speak the truth in love.
Dr. James Dobson: Is there any legal reason you can't talk about that openly?
Dr. Robert Jackson: No, sir. Not as a private physician in my own private office. I have the free speech right of any American to speak the truth and it's my obligation to do so in love and to balance truth with love. Listen, if we only speak the truth without love, then we come across as condemning. But if we only are loving towards folks without telling the truth, we're compromises. And it's our obligation to balance truth and love.
Dr. James Dobson: All right. Let me interplay with you and I'll be the woman in this situation. Doctor, you don't understand. I am not married. The men that got me pregnant is gone, long gone and he didn't want anything to do with it or with me. And I don't have the money even to raise a child. I just can't do this.
Dr. Robert Jackson: Yes, ma'am, I understand that your situation is difficult, but you're forgetting the life of the unborn child that's in your womb. There's a child there that's living and active, and that child has a right to life just as much as you have a right to pursue the interest of your own life and we have an obligation to protect the life of your unborn child. And besides-
Dr. James Dobson: Yeah, but that's only a blob of tissue, that's not a real human being yet. He's a potential human being, as you said.
Dr. Robert Jackson: No, ma'am. I beg to differ. The child within you is a human being, has a beating heart. From the time he's 21 days of age, that child has a heart that's beating. And from seven weeks of age, we can measure your baby's brain waves. And from 10 weeks of age, that baby has his own distinct fingerprints that can be measured that would forever distinguish that child from every other human being that's ever lived on planet Earth. And if you leave that baby alone, one day, you'll deliver that child and he'll be your own precious child to love and care for. And besides that, we'll come alongside of you and we'll help you to nurture and care for that child. You're not alone in this.
Dr. James Dobson: Let me ask the really tough question. What about the hard cases? What about rape, incest, and the life of the mother? And let's suppose she's in one of those three categories.
Dr. Robert Jackson: Well, Dr. Dobson, I faced all of those in the last 35 years and those are hard cases. First of all, understand that hard cases do not make good law. They don't make good case law and all lawyers know that. But I've had patients come into my office that were victims of rape and victims of incest. And of course, I've had handicapped children of my own. I have two handicapped children. Folks need to understand that handicapped children are special and they deserve special protection and they need lots of love.
When I was a resident at the hospital many years ago, I stood at the window to the newborn nursery one time and I saw a man and his wife standing there looking at a special needs baby that was their own child. He embraced his wife and he looked at that special needs baby and he said to his wife, "Darling, this one's going to need a lot more love than all the rest."
Dr. James Dobson: That's what it comes down to, isn't it?
Dr. Robert Jackson: It does. I stood at a window with my wife many years later and looked at my little Down's boy through that glass, and I remembered what that man had said 20 something years before. I looked at my little Down's boy and I said to my wife, "This one's going to need a lot more love." And he did. He had heart trouble. He needed heart surgery. Our home was like an ICU for many months as we cared for Thomas, our little Down's boy. And he needed a lot more love. But you know what? He gives us a lot of love now.
Dr. James Dobson: I bet he does.
Dr. Robert Jackson: There's no love like the love from a Down's child.
Dr. James Dobson: Those are some of the most wonderful loving people on the face of the earth.
Carlotta Jackson: We call Thomas the professor because he came to teach and not to learn. And he has taught us and our family what it means to love someone unconditionally expecting nothing in return because I've never heard Thomas say I love you. He's what we would call a non-verbal Down's child. He has some words, but very few. And I've never really heard him say... I've heard him say his name maybe twice. That's it.
Dr. James Dobson: He's a what's called a trisomy 21, which is a classical Down's child.
Carlotta Jackson: Yes, sir.
Dr. Robert Jackson: But you know, Dr. Dobson, Jesus said he did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many. And Thomas has taught my family how to be a servant, how to be a servant like Jesus was a servant. And I know lots of Christian adults who've never learned how to be a servant.
Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. Carlotta, did you have an amniocentesis to tell whether or not you were carrying such a child?
Carlotta Jackson: No, sir. When I was 14 weeks pregnant with Thomas, I had an ultrasound, not because we wanted to know the sex. We didn't want to know the sex. With nine babies, we like some surprises, so we wanted to wait until he was born to see what his sex was. But we did have an ultrasound at 14 weeks so that we could tell our parents that everything was fine because I was 44 years old. And so we were able to tell them the ultrasound looked good. No one picked up on the fact that he was Down's on that early ultrasound and we never had another one.
Dr. James Dobson: You could have known if you'd wanted to.
Carlotta Jackson: Probably. If I had had a later ultrasound, but we did not want to.
Dr. James Dobson: God bless you for not doing that.
Carlotta Jackson: Yeah.
Dr. James Dobson: Why put yourself under that kind of pressure? You accept what's there.
Carlotta Jackson: Sure. Why would I do that? We weren't going to abort him.
Dr. James Dobson: And I hear a chorus of people out there coming back at us through these microphones saying, "Easy for you to say. Easy for you to say, accept this disabled child that will never even be able to talk to you." And yet you did it. You accepted that God-given decision. He built that child.
Carlotta Jackson: That's right. Psalm 139 tells us he built him in my womb and the wonderful place. But Dr. Dobson, as I was telling you earlier, this was our second special needs child and our first one was actually sicker than the Down's child. He had laryngo tracheobronchomalacia, which is a floppy airway. He had a tracheostomy for a year and a half, and he was on a respirator for almost a year in our home. We had nurses at night coming to our house.
Dr. James Dobson: Is he still living?
Carlotta Jackson: Yes, he's still living. He's 23. So I was telling you that whenever he was born, we really didn't know that he even had a problem. And so his problem slowly unfolded and I did not have the consternation that I later had when Thomas was born. This was John Richard.
Dr. James Dobson: Carlotta, I have to stop you because we're out of time. But if you'll stay with us, we will do another program and hear the rest of your story. Is that okay?
Carlotta Jackson: Sure.
Dr. James Dobson: Dr. Jackson, thank you for coming and for taking a stand for life. The title of your book, The Family Doctor Speaks: The Truth about Life, Robert E. Jackson, MD. Thank you for this book. We'll talk some more about it next time.
Dr. Robert Jackson: Thank you, sir, Dr. Dobson.
Carlotta Jackson: Thank you, Dr. Dobson.
Dr. James Dobson: Thanks for being with us.
Roger Marsh: And that was just part one of this powerful conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his guests Dr. Robert Jackson Jr. and his wife Carlotta Jackson. Now be sure to join us again tomorrow for the conclusion of this powerful two-part interview. And if you'd like to learn more about the Jackson Family Ministry or Dr. Jackson's book, The Family Doctor Speaks: The Truth about Life, please visit drjamesdobson.org/familytalk. Remember, you can also listen to any part of today's broadcast that you might've missed while you're there so go to drjamesdobson.org/familytalk.
The Christian life can be extremely difficult at times and often we may never fully understand the tragic circumstances that God allows us to go through. If you're going through one of those situations even right now and you could use some encouragement to help you through this challenging time, I want to encourage you to sign up for a brand new resource from the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. It's our free 10-day email series called When God Doesn't Make Sense.
Now, each day for 10 days in a row, you'll be receiving messages from Dr. Dobson that explore the depths of hardship and examine its purpose. Our prayer for you is that after you spend a few moments each day reading Dr. Dobson's wisdom on this subject, you'll be strengthened in your faith as you learn why dark valleys can often bring life's greatest blessing, which is an even closer walk with the Lord. Now, we have a special URL for you to sign up for this 10-day series. Just go to drjamesdobson.org/when-god-doesnt-make-sense. And I should point out that you don't have to put an apostrophe in doesn't. So again, that's drjamesdobson.org/ when-god-doesnt-make-sense-series. And also, by the way, if you'd like to order a copy of Dr. Dobson's book featuring that same title, all you have to do is visit drjamesdobson.org/familytalk.
I'm Roger Marsh. And from all of us here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, thanks so much for making family talk a part of your day.
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.