The Harbinger II: The Return - Part 2 (Transcript)

Dr. Dobson: Well, hello everyone, I'm James Dobson and you're listening to Family Talk, a listener supported ministry. In fact, thank you so much for being part of that support for James Dobson Family Institute.

Roger Marsh: It's easy to see that 2020 has been an immensely tumultuous year, especially here in the US. In addition to the crippling pandemic, riots, racial unrest, and political divisiveness threatened to tear this country apart. Is this pandemonium God's judgment on America? Is this nation reaping the punishments of our careless embrace of immorality? Well, we hope this broadcast will shed some light on these tough questions. Dr. Dobson's guest once again today is New York Times bestselling author and prophetic teacher, Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. Right now, they're going to continue discussing Rabbi Cahn's newest book, The Harbinger II. Without any further delay, let's get started. Here once again is our host, Dr. James Dobson.

Dr. Dobson: Well, let me begin this second conversation with you, Rabbi, by summarizing what we talked about yesterday. Your message in both The Harbinger, your 2012 blockbuster book and the new book just out called The Harbinger II, they both speak of scriptural warnings that if we don't heed them, then judgment is likely to be the consequence, it will be the consequence, and that's why we must return to our biblical roots and it will be to our peril if we don't. Is that an accurate summary?

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah, The Harbinger and The Harbinger II is now a later, at a more dangerous, critical moment what's happening right now, are trumpet calls and saying, "Yes," and says, "And return." The only hope we have is to return. I mean, that word in The Harbinger means a lot of things, is the return of a lot of things, but it's ultimately that, that it's the call to return. And if we don't, I believe it's life or death, I mean, for this nation, I believe it is calamity or restoration. And I don't believe that we're at a middle ground now. And people always said, "What do you see? Do you see calamity coming? Or do you see revival?" And I said, "Sometimes there can be both. Sometimes actually through shaking and through calamity, there can be revival through those who will, and it may be our only chance at it," but the hour is late. And I believe that that is the call of God. That, "Return. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the Lord.

Dr. Dobson: I want to make sure everyone gets the point here that a spiritual renewal is the last hope for America. And it involves repentance and returning. Ancient scriptures make it clear that those who forget the commandments and become wicked and perverse will face judgment. And that many of the warnings from those ancient scriptures are strikingly relevant to our day.

Rabbi Cahn: I believe that America cannot be sustained to where it is. It's been the head of nations. It's been the most blessed nation, but I believe God is very clear about that. And what I believe we're seeing all the signs from there till now that if we don't return, those blessings are going to be removed. And the crown of America is going to be removed.

Dr. Dobson: You refer to something called a judgment tree in the book. What is that, and what is the scripture it's based on?

Rabbi Cahn: Well, in The Harbinger, it speaks to the nine Harbingers, and one of them is this tree. The scripture is, this is Isaiah 9:10. It's talking about the attack, the warning strike that came on Israel. The bricks [03:46 inaudible]. But we will rebuild with hewn stone. We're going to rebuild stronger. We're coming back stronger without God. And then it says the Sycamore has been cut down and we will plant Cedars or in Hebrew, the Erez tree in its place. Well, on 9/11, all these things started manifesting in America. And one was, it says the Sycamore, well, there was a Sycamore at ground zero, and it was struck down by the falling building. It fell. Then the people of New York, they did exactly what's in that scripture, they planted a Cedar tree or a tree that's the same tree in Hebrew, Erez tree, they planted a tree in place of the Sycamore, it's a tree of defiance. They performed this act. They had no idea what they were doing, but they did exactly what is spoken.

And so they called that tree, the tree of hope, and it's a symbol we're coming back. It really became a symbol of the nation that America is coming back. And in the Bible though, it's a symbol of defiance and judgment, so that's one of the Harbingers. What happened to it? Well, the tree of hope representing America, something biblical happened to it because one of the signs of the Bible of judgment, we know this, is the withering away of a tree. Well, the tree of hope began to wither away. They tried to do everything they could, it's representing America, everything they could to save this. It kept withering and withering, no matter what they did. And finally, one of the signs of the Bible is the fall of the Erez tree.

You read it in English, the fall of the Cedar, but it's a sign of great fall of a nation. Well, what happened is that tree representing America, not only withered away, it fell, it was destroyed. And it was destroyed on a Hebrew Holy day, which was Passover. One of the signs of the Bible and talks about, it says, "the moon shall turn red," and well there's apocalyptic things yet to come, but actually that night was a lunar eclipse, the moon turned red, you had all these things. So the tree of hope, which represented that. So in the Bible, that's a very clear thing. And this was a symbol of America. And I believe America has been withering away spiritually on the inside. And the tree was diseased. Right now we have a disease in America. The warning is that if it doesn't come back, it will fall.

And I'll just throw this in. Obama went down to Ground Zero and he actually reads the scripture. And the scripture is talking about blessing, but he changes the words, the scripture. I'm not saying he knew what he was doing, but he changed the words. It was supposed to say, "God breaks the bow," like the bow and arrow, "He breaks the weapons and brings peace to the nation." Instead, he changes it without really... He says, "God breaks the bow." Now the breaking of the bow or the branch is a sign of judgment. He says it, and right across the street is this tree. They start breaking the branches off of it because of disease. So literally all of these signs, and this was the symbol of America. So I believe another one, one of the Harbinger's became another Harbinger since the book came out.

Dr. Dobson: You mentioned when we talked yesterday about the 9/11 tragedy, the destruction of the Trade Centers and the plane that crashed into the Pentagon and so on. That that was a wakeup call, a warning to return to our spiritual roots. With the implications that there would be consequences if we ignored it. And in looking back, America did appear to waken spiritually. The churches were filled on the next Sunday and then for weeks, and people talked openly about coming back to God. And there were bumper stickers on cars about that, but something was missing, which was repentance, which means contrition and sorrowfulness for sin and the changing of behavior and returning to scriptural truth. And America quickly forgot.

I remember within three or four months, we didn't talk about it anymore. And America went back to killing babies and being immoral and wicked. In other words, there was talk about God, but there was no return to righteousness. Consequently, in this year of 2020, we've seen some tragic judgements, including the plague that we're now experiencing. Furthermore, nations that have refused to heed the warnings in scripture have paid a big price for it.

Rabbi Cahn: All those things you described is exactly what the template says that ancient Israel instead of repenting, they said we're going to get back stronger. We're going to do this, this. Well, it ended in calamity for ancient Israel. And interestingly you remember, of course, David Wilkerson, the Times Square Church in New York City, I found out on the week after 9/11, he was quoting from Isaiah 9:10, which says this, "The bricks have fallen, but we will..." And he didn't see the Harbinger, he just got that from the Lord. And so I didn't know this when I wrote the Harbinger, but there is a Bible called the One Year Bible, and you open it up, and every day there's a scripture appointed. Well on 9/11, all over America, before the attack happened, believers all over the country were opening up their Bibles to Isaiah 9:10, where the bricks are falling, which speaks of the first strike of judgment on the land, the warning strike.

It talks about everything, the attack of the enemy, they were doing it because if you open up the One Year Bible and you open it up to Isaiah 9:10, the beginning of judgment, the first strike on the land, it will have a date on top of it. And the date on top of it is 9/11, its September 11th. It was always there. And it was there from the 1980s, it was there. It was all there. So every year on 9/11, believers across America were opening up their Bibles about the strike that was coming, and the beginning of judgment. It was all there. And I'll throw this in. Not only that, there was kind of another version of it in that the Jewish people on every Sabbath, they open up the scrolls because there's an appointed word for every Sabbath that is appointed from ages ago.

And so there was a word appointed just that led into 9/11, just a few days before. And what was the word? The word was in Deuteronomy, where Moses says, "If you turn away from God, these are the things that are going to come upon you." And what it says is, "An enemy will come from the end of the earth and will come and attack you at your gate. And will be cruel and fierce." And it goes through all these details, many of which were manifested on 9/11 and it says, "He'll come like an eagle, swooping down," what happened on 9/11. In fact, the plane that began it, on the back was an image of an eagle swooping down. So all these things were there and it's almost hard to process, but it's there. God is clear, because we didn't turn, we are now where we are today.

Dr. Dobson: This warning of prophecy tells us something about the character of God, doesn't it? Because He is not mocked. You just cannot do the wicked things that are happening without there being consequences. If there were, He would be a winking blinking grandfather who dotes on his children and does not hold them accountable, but we know that's not who He is.

Rabbi Cahn: No, the Lord is long suffering, but don't mistake his long suffering for being lax. He is long suffering because he's merciful. But there comes a time, you got 60 million children, it comes a time, the blood of that, comes a time when that cannot sit anymore. And God calls, he whispers, C.S. Lewis said, "He whispers in our joys and he shouts in our pains." And so we're calling to a point where it cannot hold anymore. And how much can you mock God? Has America mocked God enough? Is there anything more that we can do? We are warring against His ways and even the things that are happening now, and things that have happened since the Harbinger, are precisely linked to those things.

Dr. Dobson: What is the 19 year mystery?

Rabbi Cahn: When I wrote The Harbinger, it was actually first coming out, is actually on the 10 year anniversary of 9/11, which is September. But then it goes to, it says, "But what about the Southern kingdom?" 605 comes the first strike, BC Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon, 605 to Jerusalem. Then the destruction, the big wave came in the year, 586 BC. So if you put that together, that's 19 years. It says in the Bible, in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar, 19 years after, the Bible has this all clear, 19 years. So what about America? September 11th, it happened in the year 2001. If you add 19 years, what do you come to? You come to the year 2020, as the year of the shakings resuming upon the land. If you follow the template, you follow the mystery. It's going to go to 2020, that shakings come upon the land.

And I mean, even I mentioned the word crown, interesting because this first plague that has come upon America, that really kind of began these things, interesting that it's other name is COVID-19, has the year in the Bible, that the year linked to judgment. And the other thing is that the prophet Jeremiah, he prophesied to Israel what was going to happen in that 19th year, in 586 BC. And one of the things he said is going to come up on the land is plague and pestilence, or in other words, disease, pandemic, virus. In other words, like Corona, what we're having right now, in the 19th year, and that's where we are.

Dr. Dobson: It's obvious why you refer to these things as mysteries. So, you could not have known that when you wrote the original Harbinger, could you?

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah and Dr. Dobson, I don't certainly claim to anything, okay. The Lord leads me here, here or here. And I'll put that together. I did strongly sense that, I mean, according to that, that the shakings we're going to resume in a strong way upon America, and I did continuously wonder and look toward that year 2020, because that was there. I never want to be dogmatic and I never want to put something in a box so, but it's all there, if you look at the original Harbinger, I mean, open it up in Harbinger II about where we are, where it's heading, but it's there in that chapter, in The Harbinger.

Dr. Dobson: You have a chapter called "The Island" that speaks of a prophetic warning, that it's embedded in the American foundation. Describe that for us.

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah. The very beginning, the kind of first really, really word given to America along these lines was, we call George Washington the father of the country. Well, the one who's called the grandfather is John Winthrop. And John Winthrop was a Puritan and he helped found the Massachusetts Bay Colony, became the leader and he gave a vision for America and it's a famous thing. And from that vision of what we were called to be, he spoke, he said, "We shall be as a City on a hill, a City on a Hill. The nations will look to us. If we follow God, the God of the Bible, we will be the most blessed nation or people in the world. The blessings of Israel will come upon us, if we do this. We will be blessed." It's happened, and people quote this, City on the Hill, Ronald Reagan certainly quoted this, but what often people don't know is that he didn't stop there.

He gave a prophetic warning and the warning he gave, he said, "But if we turn away from God, the God of the Bible, if we turn away. If we turn away from his way, we follow other gods, we follow our lusts. We follow our profits, then..." Basically I'm paraphrasing. He said, "The judgments that came upon Israel, will come upon us, America." Now the amazing thing is everything we've been talking about is that, exactly that. That the judgements that came upon Israel, the Harbinger, you have all the same night thing, replaying in America. The Gates, all these things... Listen, even the word that was appointed for the week of 9/11, that word about the Eagle, John Winthrop is based almost quoting it when he gives the warning of what will happen. So all those things are happening now where we're witnessing that.

But on top of that, when he spoke of the City on a Hill, there actually was a city that he actually founded. And I mean, it represents America, but he founded a city that he wanted and the city, we know it, it's called Boston. And he was the governor there, and he lived there and died there, was buried there at the city of John Winthrop. Amazing thing, because when you look at, when everything began and even on 9/11, where did 9/11 begin? It began as the terrorists took off from Boston, the city of John Winthrop who gave the warning, the City on the Hill of what we were supposed to be and what would happen if we didn't. And the enemy would come, it came from Boston. Not only that, John Winthrop actually had his own island there and he would pray there and he would envision what America was to be. And he was there. It was called Governor's Island because he was the governor. What happened to John Winthrop's Island, little thing where he lived? Well, it became Logan Airport, the place where 9/11 began.

Dr. Dobson: You're kidding?

Rabbi Cahn: No, Dr. Dobson. I looked at the satellite photos, I mean, I didn't see it at first. It's all there. It all began on the Island of John Winthrop who gave the warning of the City on the Hill of what would happen. This is something I think is very important and very heavy, but I think very much on our hearts. We are now dealing with this disease and I'm not saying that there's only one reason for one thing. And it was always complex even back in the Bible, but there are things that God works through and we know that God does work through pestilence in the Bible.

He uses it as a wakeup call to shake up a nation as well. Well interesting because one of the things that when I mentioned Jeremiah and I said that he spoke about, in the 19th year, the plague, what he said is he said, "This is linked to what you have done to all those children. You killed children," is what he said, "In this valley. And so now it's going to come back." Well, the thing is this, we have killed and you alluded to it, we've killed 60 million children. The whole world, the generation has killed more children than any other generation in the history of the world, 1.5 billion. But America has been leading the world in this in many ways, but America helped other nations get into abortion, and also is one of the world leaders.

But the thing is that, what's the center of abortion in America? It's New York. New York is where it began. Do you remember what happened, of course you do? Remember what happened a year just before all this happened? In 2019, New York crossed the line and they legalized the killing of babies up to the time of birth. And they actually, Dr. Dobson, they lit up the tower, the Harbinger, one of the nine Harbingers, they lit it up to celebrate. And before that year was out, this plague comes upon the world and particularly America and particularly New York, it became the center of the plague. Most of this plague has spread through America through New York. And the day that it was announced that this had come to America, it was a patient zero in Seattle. The next day the headlines were all across America. Next to the headlines was a date, the date was January 22nd. That was the date that America legalized abortion. That was the one year anniversary when New York crossed that line.

And I'm going to just throw this in, it's very kind of amazing, I believe from the Bible, that when Jeremiah makes that prophecy, he says that, "There's going to be, because of the children, and what's going to come back at you. There's going to be so much death going on. They won't be able to accommodate burying and all that." Well in New York, that's what happened. And they brought the unclaimed bodies and they send them to an island, buried them in a field. Now, Jeremiah, when he gives this prophecy, he's standing at the potter's gate with a potter's jar in his hand, and it's right by Potter's Field, the place where New York buried the bodies New York calls it, Potter's Field, the very place which Jeremiah gave the prophecy.

And Jeremiah, when he's talking about the same judgment, he says that, "Is there any balm in Gilead? Is there no balm in Gilead?" That's where it comes. Is there any healing for our land? Is there any healing for this judgment? Well, America was seeking for a cure, still is for the virus. And the first big thing that came out was a company announced, we have a cure, the stock market went up 500 points. The name of the company that produced this balm, it was a little cure, a balm, was literally, it was Gilead. It was named Gilead, and I'm just going to say one more thing. There's so much, and I'll say it in The Harbinger II, it's about 30 pages, because there's so much about what's happening now.

But one other thing is that there is the mystery of the Jubilee, we've spoken about it. It's a blessing. But if for someone who is taking something that didn't belong to them, it's retribution. Well, we took the lives of unborn children. It didn't begin in '73, it began in 1970, when abortion on demand began in New York, particularly spread across the country from New York, particularly. So again, New York. Well, 1970, and so now we are come to the Jubilee of abortion. What we took is being taken back, it is 2020. That's the Jubilee of abortion in America. And the dates that New York actually legalized it, it was two votes. It was April 9th in 1970 and April 10th. The New York Times did the study of when the plague was at its strongest attack on New York, they came up with two days, April 9th and April 10th, 50 years to the exact date.

Roger Marsh: A fascinating conversation about the biblical and historical warning signs of the events that we're experiencing even today. Rabbi Jonathan Cahn has been Dr. Dobson's guest for this broadcast. And if you missed part one of their discussion on yesterday's edition of Family Talk, go to, and you can get all caught up. Both of these interviews really set the tone for tomorrow's discussion, so be sure to listen in again then. Again, go to for more information about Rabbi Cahn, his ministry, or the brand new book, The Harbinger II. That's, and then go to today's broadcast page.

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He'd get me situated under a fallen tree that made a little secret room, and then we'd wait for the sun to come up, listening to the squirrels and the birds and the chipmunks and the entire panorama of nature unfolded before us. Those moments together with my dad were absolutely priceless to me. There was a closeness that made me want to be like him, to choose his values as my values, and his dreams as my dreams, and his God as my God. That's the power of a man to set a kid on the right road. And I can think of no wiser investment of time in the entire realm of human experience.

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