Roger Marsh: Hello, and welcome to this final installment of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk for the year 2021. I'm Roger Marsh and it has been quite a year, hasn't it? Thank you so much for your prayers for this ministry. They have been felt throughout the year and you know many families have been blessed thanks to your prayers and also your financial support. You know, one of the most common things that Dr. and Mrs. Dobson are told whenever they encounter people out in public is the following. People will come up to them and say, "Thank you. You helped me raise my children." What a beautiful expression of gratitude.
Maybe that's been your experience. Has Dr. Dobson or Family Talk had an impact on your life? Has there been a tough time or a challenge for you in which this radio program has been helpful? If so, now is the perfect time to call us and let us know about it. Just call (877) 732-6825 and let us know what your story is. We'd love to hear it.
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Now today on Family Talk, we are re-airing one of the most popular shows from this past January. It features Dr. Dobson's good friend Dr. R.T. Kendall. They'll be discussing Dr. Kendall's book titled We've Never Been This Way Before, which was published during the pandemic in 2020. Here now to introduce today's topic and guest is your host Dr. James Dobson.
Dr. James Dobson: My guest is my much loved friend, Dr. R.T. Kendall, who has been led by the Holy Spirit I believe to write a book that seems to have been written for this time and place. It's titled We've Never Been This Way Before. The subtitle is Trusting God in Unprecedented Times. Let me introduce Dr. Kendall to you, although he's been a guest many times on Family Talk and earlier on Focus on the Family, I think at least 20 times or more through the years.
I met Dr. Kendall in London in 1992, where I had gone to work on a book that became known as When God Doesn't Make Sense. He was then the senior pastor of Westminster Chapel, where he eventually served for 25 years. The church was located just a few blocks from Buckingham Palace in the heart of London. We attended that historic church while we were there and we developed a fast friendship with Dr. and Mrs. Kendall.
He's a scholar who holds a Ph.D. from Oxford University and many other advanced degrees. He's a written 60 books or probably more than that by now. And many of them have been best sellers. So with that, welcome Dr. R.T. Kendall to our program.
R.T. Kendall: Thank you.
Dr. James Dobson: You've now released this new book that deals with going through hard times. It's an interesting title, We've Never Been This Way Before: Trusting God in Unprecedented Times. I want you to start by telling us how in the world you came to write a book on this subject in early 2020 before most of the problems we faced had come about. The book has turned out to be rather prophetic, hasn't it?
R.T. Kendall: Well, it wasn't on my schedule at all. I had already written a book called You Might Just Be a Pharisee If... and I think that will be a very interesting book, but they said to me, "Oh, by the way, do you have anything on your heart regarding the present coronavirus crisis?" I said, "Well, as a matter of fact I do." One line has been going through me for weeks. "We've never been this way before" is what Joshua said to the children of Israel as they're getting ready to go into the line of Canaan into the Promised Land. And so Joshua said, "Keep your eyes on the Ark of the Covenant, because where it goes, you follow. And if you go where it goes, you'll be okay.
And so, keep your eyes on the ark because you've never been this way before." It's almost tender word that God knows our past. He knows where we are. And I kept thinking for days and days, you know what we're going through in America, we've never been this way before. And then they said, "Let's forget the other book for now. How soon can you give us a book?" Well, because we were in lockdown, do you know I wrote it in less than a month? It wasn't on their schedule or mine.
Dr. James Dobson: Well, you hit the nail on the head. Many people are troubled today because the future is so uncertain and seems so dark. You've written this book to address these times specifically. What do you say to the people who feel like they've been under siege?
R.T. Kendall: Hebrews 12:2, "Keep your eyes on Jesus." Fix your eyes on Him. He knows where He's going. And as long as you keep your eyes on Him, you will be safe. And so I've written this book as a word of comfort. It's also a word of caution. And not only that, I believe that this will end up in the greatest awakening of the history of the church. What do you think of that?
Dr. James Dobson: Do you really believe a third great spiritual awakening is coming our way?
R.T. Kendall: I do, I do. You see, God is at the bottom of it all. He's right in the middle of it. He didn't bring this on to mock us. This is what I call gracious judgment. He's done this to get our attention and it's not for nothing.
Dr. James Dobson: So, we're in a period of judgment at this time?
R.T. Kendall: Oh, it is judgment. Now in my book, which you kindly referred to We've Never Been This Way Before, I mentioned five kinds of judgment. For example, there's retributive judgment. That's getting even in the Old Testament. Eye for an eye. Tooth for a tooth. And retributive judgment is when God gets even. And then gracious judgment. That's partly retributive and partly merciful. For example, David's sin, King David, he committed adultery and then he committed murder to hide the adultery. But good news. Nathan said, "You will not die." And God got David's attention and he fell to his knees, wrote Psalm 51. "God have mercy on me." And God was merciful to David.
And so that is what I mean by gracious judgment. There's a third kind: redemptive judgment. That's partly retribution, partly promise. When the children of Israel murmured against God and God sent poisonous snakes that bit the people and people were dying all over the place. And God ordered Moses to make a fiery serpent and set it up on a pole and all who were bitten, looked upon the serpent and they would live.
Then there's a fourth kind: natural judgment. That is simply it speaks for itself. You reap what you sow. Natural judgment. Fifth: silent judgment. That's really the worst kind. That's when God appears to do nothing when He just doesn't speak. You don't know what's going on. Do you realize God's not like us? When we get angry, we show it. The angrier God is, the calmer He is. He says nothing. God isn't finished with us yet and He's trying to get our attention.
Dr. James Dobson: R.T., I wrote a letter to our constituency I think it was in August of last year where I talked about the fact that America has become morally bankrupt and spiritually bereft. This is what I said, "Sadly, she," referring to America, "Has prostituted herself with pornography, perversion, pedophilia, profanity, infidelity, greed, pride, sexual slavery, premarital sex, the LGBTQ ideology, illicit drugs, lawlessness, dishonesty, hatred, racism, want and violence, family abandonment, public schools that are corrupting our young and exposing them to apostacy. The institution of marriage, which was ordained by the creator is a metaphor for a relationship between Jesus Christ and His church. And yet, marriage has now been redefined and perverted.
Among America's most heinous sins are the murders of 62 million babies who were being knitted together in their mother's wombs. Then they were without anesthesia from their places of safety. Their blood calls out to the creator from the ground in which it lies. There is one phrase to describe our godless culture, it is utter wickedness, which if left to its natural course will eventually bring divine judgment." That's what you're talking about, R.T., isn't it?
R.T. Kendall: Oh yes. And in my book, I've referred to four things that has caused it. Number one, racism. It's written in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men were created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness." And the way we have treated African Americans, do you know most of us white Christians, we don't even think about their hurt? It doesn't cross our minds.
And it's like in James 5:4, 2,000 years ago, the issue wasn't black or white. The issue was rich-poor. And there were the rich Christians that were neglecting the poor Christians and even holding back their wages. And the poor Christians cried out and James 5:4 says, "God has heard you. The Lord of hosts has heard your cry." And if you want to know why the judgment, this is not the only reason, but it is a very definite reason. God is angry with our racism and I think white Christians need to own up to the fact that they've been insensitive to the way African Americans feel.
Dr. James Dobson: You know, I felt for many years that the tragedy of the civil war where 600,000 men die was a form of delayed punishment for the evil of slavery.
R.T. Kendall: I think you're exactly right. I couldn't agree more.
Dr. James Dobson: Well, what's number two?
R.T. Kendall: Number two. Well, you've already said it. It is legalized abortions without any penalty. And this has made God very, very angry. The fact that John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeth's womb when the Virgin Mary showed up with the Son of God in her womb, only one day after conceiving by the Holy Spirit that's proof. And this is God's attention.
And the Supreme Court's decision in 1973 to allow abortion for any reason without penalty open the way for, well, you just said it, 62 million. Do you know that's the population of New York and California combined? And these are babies that have been murdered. And so many of us, we don't even have a sense of outrage anymore. We've lived with it. And I could tell you another thing. One of the main reasons for abortion, it's people wanting sexual freedom without the responsibility of having to raise children and that's behind it. And that's what we are facing.
Dr. James Dobson: I shudder when I think of what we've done to the next generation. How about number three?
R.T. Kendall: Number three, same-sex marriage. The contempt that we have now for our creator, God, I think one of the most abused truths in the Bible is Genesis 1:27. "So God created man in His own image. In the image of God, He created him, male and female. He created them." You see, this was God's idea as to how the earth would be populated. And marriage was God's plan. And the biblical view of Christian marriage between a man and a woman has largely been eclipsed by the general approval now of same-sex marriage.
And you know, Jim, as recently as 10 years ago, the average American was disgusted at the idea of same-sex marriage. But then that has all changed and now we have just lived with it, and don't think anything about it and have approved of it. And God is angry and God has stepped in.
Dr. James Dobson: Angry indeed. You know, prior to 2015, the citizens of 30 states here in the United States voted for constitutional amendments, designating marriage as being exclusively between one man and one woman. That was the law of the land in those states. The people of 30 states went to the polls and voted to put that clause into their constitutions.
But by majority of one justice, the U.S. Supreme Court struck that down all across the country. And this definition of marriage was redefined, even though it was the expressed will of the people to call marriage by its name. So quickly, Americans jettisoned their own beliefs and allowed these five Supreme Court justices to redefine marriage throughout the United States.
R.T. Kendall: Yeah, you're exactly right and no sense of outrage. God has stepped in and He's angry. It's my heartfelt conviction. God's judgment is on America, but thankfully it's gracious judgment. It's His way of wanting to get our attention. And I hope how soon it drives us to our knees.
Dr. James Dobson: Where does that judgment lead?
R.T. Kendall: Well, the awful violence to that we're going through at the moment. Not only that, but disease, this plague. When God sent plagues in the Old Testament, He expected us to ask, "Why are you doing this?" In the days of King David when the famine came, David says, "Why is this happening?" And God answered, "It's because of the way you've treated Gibeonites." And although that had been years before. You see, we tend to think if God doesn't step in the next morning, well, there's nothing wrong with it.
See, none of this is by accident. Jesus is the right hand of God. And we're told Hebrews 1:2, "He upholds all things by the word of His power." And these don't come by accident. Listen, God is angry, but He loves us and He is not finished with us.
Dr. James Dobson: In the Book of Proverbs it says, "When the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" There's some hand-wringing here. It implies that we all going to be affected by this judgment. Summarize the three primary causes of judgment and then give us the fourth.
R.T. Kendall: First, racism. Second, legalized abortions. Third, same-sex marriage. Fourth, theological liberalism in pulpits all over America where we've denied the inspiration of the Bible and through the influence of German theologians like Paul Tillich, Karl Barth, Bultmann and this has crept into the American pulpit. Not all of them thankfully, but so many of them.
And there's a teaching known as open theism. This is taken over the pulpits. It's the idea that God doesn't know the future. It's the idea that God doesn't even know what to do next. He's looking to us for input.
Dr. James Dobson: That's blasphemy.
R.T. Kendall: It just shows how man-centered theology has been. And the idea of believing the virgin birth, the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross, all these things are not being taught and God is angry.
Dr. James Dobson: You know, it seems to me that there's a fifth source of judgment and it's very, very alarming to me. I've talked about it throughout the last year because it's stuck in my throat, and it has to do with what we're doing to children. You just look at what's taking place in the public schools. The LGBTQ ideology is now taught from kindergarten through grade 12 in many public schools. We're literally warping the next generation spiritually, R.T. Christian parents seem to be oblivious to it.
R.T. Kendall: I've got three grandsons. It breaks my heart to think that what they're going to have to hear, what they're going to have to see. Our grandchildren are homeschooled at the moment. We don't know at what time government will step in on this, but I couldn't agree with you more. We could add that as a fifth cause.
Dr. James Dobson: Repentance is the key to forgiveness, isn't it? Without repentance, God's judgment will continue.
R.T. Kendall: Well, what it has thrilled me is different people that have read the book. One close friend, I didn't expect her to say this. And she said spontaneously. Said," R.T., your book gave me peace." You see, as the children of Israel we're told to keep their eyes on the Ark of the Covenant, because you've never been this way before. The New Testament fulfillment of the ark is Jesus Christ, the glory of God. And if we will keep our eyes on Jesus, He will be near. James said, "Draw a nigh at God, He will draw a nigh at you." And we begin to experience how real Jesus is.
And I can tell you if people listening right now will just turn to Jesus and look straight at Him. Charles Spurgeon once said, "I looked to Christ and the dove flew in. I looked at the dove and it disappeared." It's a way of saying that we must keep our eyes on Jesus even when good things happened. We start looking at those things and we get our eyes off of Him. And so the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to keep us focused on Jesus and that will give us peace. That will give us joy and perfect love, cast out fear. And that is the need.
Dr. James Dobson: Well, for those who joined us late, we've been speaking with Dr. R.T. Kendall. He's written a book, a new book that he's called We've Never Been This Way Before: Trusting God in Unprecedented Times. R.T., summarize your message for those in the audience who are particularly worried and anxious about the future and what they see occurring around them.
R.T. Kendall: Here's the question I would ask every person listening right now. Do you know for sure that if you were to die today, would you go to Heaven? And if you were to stand before God and He were to ask you, "Why should I let you into my Heaven?" What would your answer be? And I would say to any person listening if you're trusting your good works, if you're trusting trying to be a good person, if you're trusting anything other than the blood of Jesus, I would not want to be in your shoes for anything in the world.
So as soon as I asked the question, what should one say to God if God says, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" You should immediately think it, spontaneously it should come because Jesus died. And that's the only hope we have. And I would just say to anybody listening right now, just pray this prayer. Lord Jesus, I need you. I want you. Thank you for dying on the cross for my sins. Wash my sins away by your blood. I welcome your Holy Spirit into my heart as best as I know how. I give you my life. Amen. That's the prayer.
Dr. James Dobson: That's a fundamental to our faith, isn't it?
R.T. Kendall: Exactly.
Dr. James Dobson: You know, the ministry of evangelism explosion is built on that very question.
R.T. Kendall: Our mutual friend Jim Kennedy now in Heaven, he taught me that and he asked the question and Jim Kennedy said to himself, "Well, I've tried to do this. I've tried to do that." And then Donald Grey Barnhouse pointed out, "You're only saved by the blood of Jesus." And at that moment, Jim Kennedy was converted. And that's why he used that the rest of his ministry and that's where I got it.
Dr. James Dobson: Well, Dr. R.T. Kendall, I have known you now for 28 years and I love you like a brother. I appreciate so much who you are and I love you because you love my Lord. And you've given your entire life to Him and you're still going strong.
R.T. Kendall: I am.
Dr. James Dobson: Well, bless you, my brother. And thanks for this book. One more time, we've been discussing We've Never Been This Way Before with a subtitle Trusting God in Unprecedented Times. We're certainly experiencing those times right now. God go with you, R.T. and thanks for being with us today.
R.T. Kendall: Thank you.
Roger Marsh: I'm Roger Marsh and you've been listening to an encouraging and poignant conversation here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. Dr. R.T. Kendall's book We've Never Been This Way Before really speaks to the trying times that we've been experiencing these past couple of years. I hope you'll check out a copy. You'll find a link for Dr. Kendall's book and his thriving ministry when you visit our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org/broadcast.
Now, before we sign off for the year, I want to give you one final reminder that the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute is completely listener-supported. As you do your final giving for 2021, would you add Family Talk to the list of ministries that you support financially? Right now is the perfect time to give as well as we currently have a matching grant in place. Your tax deductible donation will be doubled when you give today. You can donate over the phone when you call (877) 732-6825. That's (877)732-6825 or visit us online at drjamesdobson.org.
Well, that concludes our programming for the year of 2021. It's been another distinctive year for sure. Not only for the United States, but also for the world on the whole. Here at Family Talk though, we are full of gratitude for the generosity that we have received from you, our listeners. We've heard so many stories of people being touched by the broadcast and that's all thanks to your prayers and faithful financial support.
Thank you on behalf of Dr. Dobson and the entire staff here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute for inviting us into your homes and cars, and making us a part of your day throughout the year. We'll see you next week as we begin 2022 together. God's richest blessings to you and your family in the new year and beyond.
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.