Roger Marsh: The authenticity of miracles in our current time in history is a fiercely contested belief in Christendom. Supernatural occurrences are hard to recognize and understand it's even harder to believe that miracles are possible when God doesn't intervene during our difficult situations. I'm Roger Marsh, and you are listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. And on today's program, Dr. Dobson will continue his conversation with best-selling author and well-known Christian apologist, Lee Strobel. They'll be talking about Lee's meticulously research book entitled The Case for Miracles. If you missed part one of the program, by the way, you can listen at drjamesdobson.org/familytalk and hear the broadcast in its entirety.
Lee Strobel is a New York times best-selling author of more than 40 books and curricula that have sold 14 million copies in total. He was a journalist at the Chicago Tribune and other newspapers, winning Illinois' highest honors for both investigative reporting and public service journalism.
After probing the evidence for Jesus for nearly two years, Lee became a Christian in 1981. He went on to become a teaching pastor at three of America's largest churches and hosted the national network TV program Faith Under Fire. Currently Lee serves as founding director of the Lee Strobel center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University. Lee is married to his childhood sweetheart, Leslie, and they have two grown children and many grandchildren as well. Now the interview you're about to hear was recorded at the headquarters of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute here in Colorado Springs. Over 30 people, invited guests and ministry supporters were in attendance for this live recording. It took place in our main conference room. Everyone were all entertained and enlightened by Lee's presentation and Dr. Dobson's line of questioning. Let's go to part two of Dr. Dobson's conversation with Lee Strobel right now on today's edition of Family Talk.
Dr. James Dobson: You've written a book called The Case for Miracles. And this is a book that I think our listeners are going to be very excited to get ahold of because there are a lot of questions about whether God still performs miracles. Many people think He doesn't.
Lee Strobel: That's right. A lot of people like David Hume, the famous Scottish skeptic said, "Miracles are impossible because they would violate the laws of nature. You can't violate the laws of nature, therefore miracles can't happen." And you have to look at the definition of a miracle. A miracle is not a violation of laws of nature. If I take this pen that's sitting here on the table and I drop it. The law of gravity says it will hit the ground. If I drop this pen and you reach in and grab it before it hits the ground, you're not violating the laws of gravity. You're just intervening. And a miracle is when God intervenes in the creation that He made. Yeah. And does something that is extraordinary and points to Him and His greatness and His goodness.
Dr. James Dobson: So, the case for The Case for Miracles starts there.
Lee Strobel: It does, it starts-
Dr. James Dobson: It still happens.
Lee Strobel: It still happens today. And you know what I did? And this really surprised me. I hired George Barna to do a national survey, a scientific poll. And I asked people, have you ever had an instant in your life some incident that you can only explain as being a miracle of God? 38% said yes, I've had a miracle in my life. Now, if you extrapolate that out, that means 95 million miracles have happened among American adults. Now, let's assume that 95% of those are really just big coincidences, not really miracles. So just a big coincidence. That still means there's 4.7 million miracles just in the U.S.
So, I think God is still in the miracle business. And as I pursued this book, what I did is kind of unusual. I interviewed a skeptic. In fact, the number one skeptic in America, Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic Magazine. And I allowed him to build the ... yeah. I mean, there's a credential for you. Right?
Dr. James Dobson: Right.
Lee Strobel: And I let him build the case against miracles. So I spend the first three chapters building the case against miracles. And then I spend the rest of the book, not only responding and answering those objections, but building the affirmative case that God is still in the miracle business today.
Dr. James Dobson: Let's talk about how miracles occur. You may or may not agree with this, but it seems to me that when God does intervene in our lives, in a dramatic way, He usually does it in a way that preserves faith.
Lee Strobel: Oh, definitely, and builds faith.
Dr. James Dobson: He won't do anything that undermines faith because He values faith above all else. That's the vehicle above which we can get ahold of Him, that we can encounter Him. And so you don't have a person with an arm missing and during the night an arm grows. Those kind of miracles that rarely occur, but some of them are very dramatic.
Lee Strobel: They are dramatic. And the result of prayer, the result of faith. One story in my book's the most, my favorite, because this story just blows my mind. It is the best documented miracle I've ever encountered. It involves woman named Barbara, and Barbara was dying of MS. She was on her deathbed. She'd been to Mayo Clinic. She'd been suffering for many years. They said, "There's no more hope. She's in hospice." They put her in hospice in her home. She was going to die. She had a tube in her throat. She was breathing via oxygen coming from canisters in her garage. She was virtually blind. She could only see shapes and gray. Her one lung was collapsed. The other lung was only half inflated. Her diaphragm was mostly paralyzed. She had not walked in seven years. Her legs were atrophied. Her body was curled like a pretzel. Her fingers were touching her wrists. Her feet were extended. She couldn't even put them flat on the floor. She was in her last days of life.
One of her doctors said, "She was as sick as any human being I've ever seen." Somebody calls a local radio station, WMBI, the Moody station right in Chicago and says, "Would people please pray for Barbara?" We know that 450 people at a minimum began to pray for her because they wrote letters saying, "I'm praying for Barbara." Well, she's in her bed. She has two friends who are there, who are reading some of these letters of encouragement that these praying people were writing to her. And Barbara hears a voice coming from the corner of her room. There's no one else in the room. It's a man's voice. She knew it was God. And the voice said, "Get up my child and walk."
They could tell. Her friends could tell she was agitated. Something was going on. They removed the tube from her throat. Said, "What's going on?" She said, "Go get my mom and dad. God just told me to walk." She didn't wait. She virtually jumped out of bed. She had not stood in seven years. Her mother comes running in. She falls to her knee. She grabs her leg. She says, "You have calves again." Her calves had come back instantly so that she could stand. She looked. Her hands returned to normal. Her feet were flat on the floor as they hadn't been in seven years. Her eyesight was instantaneously healed. Her and her father began dancing around the room together.
That night at the Wesleyan church where she attended in Wheaton, Illinois, they had a service and she showed up at the service. And when the pastor said, "Does anybody have any announcements?" She came walking down the aisle and all people knew was her in her wheelchair. That's all they ever knew of her. And she's walking down the aisle and people began singing, "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound who saves a wretch like me. I once was blind, but now I see."
Next day she went to her doctor. He said later, "I thought it was a ghost because there's no way she's walking toward me down this hallway." Two doctors wrote books about it because they were so flabbergasted. They both say, "This is an undeniable miracle." And so here we have an incredibly well documented medical case of instant healing. This is not spontaneous remission that can happen sometimes in an illness because that generally happens over a period of time. And often the healing is not permanent. It will come back.
She's now 37 years later, married to a pastor. He's a pastor of a church out in Virginia. I spent time with both of them, and she's healthier than I am. You look at that and you go, how do you explain that? How do you explain that voice telling her to get up? That'd be like a voice telling you, get up and fly. You'd say, what are you nuts? I can't fly. She couldn't walk. She hadn't stood in seven years. So how do you explain that other than this was God reaching out? And I said to her, "Why you? Why do you think God healed you? Because people pray for healing all the time." She said, "I don't know."
One thing though that's interesting is that when she was laying in that bed for years and she said my, "Mind was fine. I was curled like a pretzel though, but my mind was fine. And I thought, what could I do with my mind? I know what I can do. I can pray for other people." So she spent years of her life in bed as an invalid praying for other people. And I wonder if God in His grace and in His love-
Dr. James Dobson: Now it's your turn.
Lee Strobel: Said, "It's your turn. It's your turn." I don't know that, but I wouldn't put it passed God.
Dr. James Dobson: One of the most dramatic miracles that I've encountered was with regard to Pete Maravich.
Lee Strobel: Yes.
Dr. James Dobson: He was one of the finest basketball players ever.
Lee Strobel: Incredible.
Dr. James Dobson: Probably some people consider him in the top five. He was magic before Magic was magic.
Lee Strobel: Pistol Pete they called him.
Dr. James Dobson: That was his nickname and I had become acquainted with him toward the end of his life. In fact, on the last day of his life. And he told me that he had not been a good man, but when he finished his basketball career, his knees were bothering him and so he couldn't leave the house because people hounded him. So, he stayed in his house for two years, and he was totally miserable, absolutely miserable because he had nothing to live for. His career was over, and he just stayed there and in state of depression. He said that one morning, he heard his name. He was in bed asleep. He heard his name. He sat up in bed and he looked around and he heard it again, and it called him. He got out of this bed, got on his knees and gave his heart to the Lord. And from that time, for the next five years, he couldn't talk about anything, but his love for Christ and what He had done for him. And I was playing basketball with him when he died. I don't know if you know that story.
Lee Strobel: I know that, yeah. I did not know about God calling his voice.
Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. He had t-shirt on and said Looking Unto Jesus. He knew where that power came from and that forgiveness came from and he was filled with it five years later. And then he suddenly collapsed in front of me, and died in my arms. But he's in Heaven today because of a miracle.
Lee Strobel: How do you explain that? How do you ... You can't. One of the amazing phenomenon that's going on around the world is that God is reaching Muslims in closed countries, closed to the gospel, directly through dreams. What's happening is half of Muslims are illiterate so they can't read the gospels. 85% don't know a Christian.
Dr. James Dobson: Is that true? 85% have never met a committed Christian?
Lee Strobel: Yeah. Don't know a committed Christian. And so, what is God doing in His love? He's reaching them directly through dreams, and it's a remarkable phenomenon. And they're validated. I'll tell you how I mean that. There's a Muslim woman married to a Muslim man. She's in the Middle East, in a closed country. She calls out. She said, "God, I don't feel you're there. Allah, where are you? I don't feel a connection with you. I want to know you. Please show me who you are." And she was very empty in her Muslim faith. They moved to Houston, and she has a dream. And in this dream, there's a lake and there's a man standing next to her in the lake with a book. And the man is looking off in the horizon and he's weeping. Now, she doesn't know anything about baptism. Never heard of baptism.
So, she has this dream, and it's the most vibrant, real dream that she's ever experienced. She meets a woman from our church. The woman invites her to come to Easter services at our church. She comes to Easter services. She sits down and she sees a man walking up the aisle. His name is Alan Splong. He's one of our pastors who does baptisms, and Alan's walking. She says, "You're the man. You're the one from my dream. I saw you in my dream." They lead her to faith in Christ and sure enough, he baptizes her in the pond just as that dream foretold. So, there's an external validation, which is, I met someone in my dream who I don't know who he is, but then I meet him in real life.
And in these dreams, for instance, there was one in Egypt where a mother of several children had a dream about Jesus. It was a vibrant dream. And she said, "Tell me more about you." And Jesus said to her, "My friend will tell you." And she said, "Who's your friend?" And he said, "He's here." And there was a man there. And so the next day she goes to the market in Cairo on a Friday. It's very crowded. And she sees a man and it's him. And she goes up, "You're the man. You were in my dream. I saw you wearing in the same clothes. You're with same glasses. You're the man." He was a Christian missionary. And he was able to share the gospel with her. So there's this external validation that often takes place in these dreams. But it reminds me of that story about Pete Maravich because God in His love will do what's necessary to those who are sincerely seeking Him and sincerely want to know Him. The one true God, He will reach out.
Dr. James Dobson: Now, Lee, it seems to me that we really ought to deal with the other half of this coin. What do you do when God says no?
Lee Strobel: Right.
Dr. James Dobson: And He does say no on occasion. He's sovereign. It will be His choice. I've never seen anybody stand up in front of an entire audience and say, you can all be healed to that. It doesn't work that way.
Lee Strobel: Right. That's right.
Dr. James Dobson: It's a highly individual thing.
Lee Strobel: That's right. And not all the apostles weren't able to heal all the time.
Dr. James Dobson: So, some good people die.
Lee Strobel: That's right. My wife is chronically ill. She suffers from fibromyalgia. And it's an incurable condition that no medication has been able to help her. She's in pain every day of her life. And we've certainly prayed for God to heal her, and He has not. And I knew I could not write a book on miracles without dealing with this question. So I went to a man who has a PhD in philosophy, Dr. Douglas Groothuis of Denver Seminary. His wife at a young age is dying from dementia. She at this point does not know what a hairbrush is. She doesn't know what a telephone is. She's only in her fifties.
And so, they have prayed for God to heal her, and He has not chosen for whatever reason to heal her. But because he's a philosopher and because he's suffering personally from this, he was able to talk with such depth of emotion and intellect. It is the most powerful chapter I've ever written in any book. And what does he say about it? He says, "God is sovereign, and God will do as God will do." And he says, "At some point it's appropriate to pray what's called the prayer of relinquishment." And the prayer of relinquishment is what Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Dr. James Dobson: Not my will, but-
Lee Strobel: Not my will, but your will. That where we say, God, we've been praying for my wife to be healed for years now and it has not happened. And perhaps it's not in your will to happen in this world. We know in the next world, she will be healed. Apparently for whatever reason, we don't understand. Your ways are not our ways. Your ways are above our ways. Help us through this, help us learn from this. Help us grow through this. Help us cope with this. But Lord, we give this situation to you and we trust you. Our faith is not in the healing, it is in God.
Dr. James Dobson: That's right.
Lee Strobel: And if we make our faith on the healing, that becomes a false God. That I will only love you, God, if you heal my wife.
Dr. James Dobson: Yes. See here's what concerns me. When God does say no, and in fact, I wrote a book called When God Doesn't Make Sense. They really need help because spiritually that's deep water. And if you are in agony or you are losing ground and you see death coming, and you pray a prayer, an agonized prayer for healing. And sometimes God says no. What are you left with? One, God is not really there. Two, maybe there's unbroken sin in my life that's not confessed. That's what people come running at you with. They say if you-
Lee Strobel: Put the guilt on you.
Dr. James Dobson: That's right. There are four or five of those and they're all bad. They all lead to spiritual confusion and depression. So when we talk about miracles, we also have to say God will do what God will do. And sometimes He does wonderful things. He did for me. I had a stroke and 24 hours later, I was well. I mean, that doesn't happen. That just doesn't happen. But I will die too when my time comes.
Lee Strobel: And we know that ultimately healing will come. But you're right in the depth of the suffering, it is at that point where our faith can be in jeopardy. And that's the point where we say, we have to say, I'm not going to create a God out of my illness. And then I'm only going to worship the God who chooses at this point to heal me in the way I want to be healed. But my God is sovereign. My God will choose what He wants to do. His ways are above my ways. And if in His ways it is better for me to be in this situation, then I'm going to trust Him in this. As difficult, as hard as it is, I'm going to trust Him.
That's what my wife has come to. After years and years and years of suffering, it is I trust God. And she can say, "I can authentically look at what I've gone through and look at all the ways I've grown spiritually, all the ways I've learned all the lessons I've learned how my faith has been deepened because of it. Because I didn't run from God in the midst of my pain. I ran to Him in the midst of my pain."
Dr. James Dobson: Pain. The best example or perhaps the most disturbing example is Joni Eareckson Tada.
Lee Strobel: Yeah.
Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. She's 17 when she broke her neck. She's been in a wheelchair.
Lee Strobel: Is it 50 years now?
Dr. James Dobson: Been in a wheelchair 50 years. And you know she's prayed every prayer that's possible to be prayed. She's been prayed for by faith healers. She has been-
Lee Strobel: But look what God has done through her suffering.
Dr. James Dobson: Look what he's done.
Lee Strobel: Oh my goodness.
Dr. James Dobson: He chose a different path for her.
Lee Strobel: He did. And thousands of people have come to faith and will spent eternity in Heaven because He chose to use her in her situation to reach Him with the gospel.
Dr. James Dobson: See, that's why she's one of the greatest women in America.
Lee Strobel: She absolutely she is.
Dr. James Dobson: Because she let God have it.
Lee Strobel: And to think, when she laid on that gurney right after the accident, as a teenager realizing I'm paralyzed for life. And she said, "I wanted to kill myself." And you think of that. And you think of the fact that how God has redeemed this situation and used her in such a mighty way and grown her in incredible way, spiritually with such depth and such ... You think what a tragedy it would've been for her to react in that moment in that way.
But you know, she's a woman who as you said, is one of the greatest women of faith in the world today, not in spite of her condition, but because of her condition. She would not be who she is today had she not gone through that.
Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. Well, I have your new book in front of me. It's called The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural by Lee Strobel.
Lee Strobel: We did it just before Easter because of there's a chapter on the resurrection in there, a chapter on the biggest miracle, which is the creation of the universe from nothing that God created and the evidence for that. And then the most important miracle, which was the death of Christ on the cross for our sins and then His resurrection from the dead.
Dr. James Dobson: You're a great writer, Lee and a great friend of mine. And you love the Lord with all your heart. I know that and you're speaking all over the country.
Lee Strobel: Yeah. It's fun.
Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. And what kind of venues? Where can people find you?
Lee Strobel: Churches, seminars. I do a lot of fundraising for charities, for the American Bible Society and for Christian universities and American Leprosy Society and things like that.
Dr. James Dobson: You have of an internet address?
Lee Strobel: I do. Leestrobel.com and I'm on Twitter @LeeStrobel. I love Twitter because it's like journalism day. It's like a headline. And my buddy Mark Mittelberg and I wrote a book once about living the Christian life. We called it The Unexpected Adventure, because you don't know what's going to happen, but you know what? If you're following Christ, you know you're on the right path. You know you're doing the right thing.
Dr. James Dobson: I'm glad He doesn't tell me what's coming.
Lee Strobel: I know. That's true.
Dr. James Dobson: I don't want to know. I would like to live it out.
Lee Strobel: That's right.
Dr. James Dobson: Have that surprise, that expectation.
Lee Strobel: Exactly. It's that joy and there's nothing like it. I mean, I look back at the years that I sought answers in a bottle and in other ways that were just self-destructive and now I look at not only living for Christ, but the influence that has in my family, my children, my grandchildren, and it's the best.
Dr. James Dobson: Are you working on another book?
Lee Strobel: Just starting to. My buddy, Mark Mittelberg and I just finished a curriculum that we were doing based on our movie, The Case for Christ, which tells my story.
Dr. James Dobson: Where can people find that?
Lee Strobel: That's on Netflix, and it's also available on DVD and Blu-ray at any place that has those available.
Dr. James Dobson: Describe it.
Lee Strobel: It's a story of my journey from atheism to faith and the turmoil in our marriage. It's dramatic with actors and actresses, set in 1980 in the film. It's so well done. We got an a plus from cinema score, which is a secular rating service. It only gives two a year, and we've had people come to faith. One church rented a movie theater in Australia showed the movie and 22 people came to faith right there in the theater. So we've been so grateful how God has used it evangelistically.
Dr. James Dobson: Hey, thanks for coming and be with us in this little gathering today.
Lee Strobel: My pleasure. Glad to do it.
Dr. James Dobson: It's always good to be with you.
Lee Strobel: Love being with you. Thank you.
Dr. James Dobson: Give our love to your family.
Lee Strobel: I will. Thank you. You too.
Roger Marsh: Well, you've been listening to Family Talk and the second half of Dr. Dobson's inspiring and helpful conversation with apologist and best-selling author Lee Strobel. Over the past two days, they've been talking about Lee's book, The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural. If you missed any part of this two day conversation, remember you can listen to the entire dialogue when you visit drjamesdobson.org/familytalk.
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When you sign up, you'll receive an email with all the details about the challenge. Well, that's all the time we have for today. Thanks for joining us here on Family Talk. I'd like to invite you to listen again next time for another compelling encouraging broadcast. This is Roger Marsh for Dr. James Dobson, encouraging you to go out there and make a difference.
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