Roger Marsh: Well, welcome back to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh thanking you for joining us today. We are living in such turbulent times, but when we stand with God and we stand together as Christians, we can make wonderful things happen. Families and marriages can be transformed, children can become safer, and we can make tomorrow a little bit better for us all. While today is Giving Tuesday, it's a global one day generosity event that unleashes the power of people and organizations to transform communities and mission fields, and we have some exciting news.
Through the generosity of some special friends of our ministry, we have a matching grant of $75,000 in place today for Giving Tuesday. This means that the impact of your gift right now will be doubled when you make a donation to the JDFI. If God has positioned you to donate, please visit us online at drjamesdobson.org. Or remember, you can make a donation over the phone at 877-732-6825, and make a donation of any amount today here on this Giving Tuesday. It's because of listeners just like you that we can make possible these programs that impact lives and the culture.
Now in today's program, we're going to hear part two of Gary Bauer's powerful conversation with his guest, Kirk Cameron, and they'll be discussing how Kirk's Children's book has led to a larger battle in our nation's libraries. Of course, Kirk Cameron is an actor, an author, and the host of TBN's television series, Takeaways and One on One with Kirk Cameron. Kirk has also partnered with Brave Books for a children's Facebook campaign launched nationwide. It's called "See You at The Library." His newest children's book is entitled The Fox, the Fair and the Invention Scare. Kirk and his lovely wife Chelsea, have been married for over 30 years, and together they have six grown children. Well, let's now join our co-host, Gary Bauer and his special guest, Kirk Cameron for today's edition of Family Talk.
Gary Bauer: Hey, Kirk, welcome back to day two with you. The first day of our conversation was really fantastic. We covered a lot of material, a lot of ground, but I'm looking forward today to delving in even deeper to this great struggle in our country over what we're going to teach our children about the most important issues they're going to face in life. So are you ready?
Kirk Cameron: I'm ready. Let's dive in.
Gary Bauer: Fantastic. Let's go. Kirk, I recall for whatever reason, God has sentenced me to be in Washington banging my head against some of these left-wing ideas, and I've been doing this for decades and I have to be truthful with you it gets me down sometimes. I recall coming home one night and turning on the news, and as chance would have it, Fox News was reporting on what had happened in Indianapolis.
And when I saw those people at that library showing up for this simple reading of a book that I would hope any parent would want their children to be exposed to, it was encouraging to me in the "Washington, D.C. Wars" to be reminded that out there in the great land we call America, there are millions of people of all races and backgrounds and faiths and sometimes no faiths that just want to raise good and decent children, and you were able to empower them with this simple idea, just come to the local library.
Kirk Cameron: Yeah. And the truth is that libraries are amazing places. They're often big, beautiful buildings, particularly in big downtown cities, and they cost millions and millions of dollars, but I wonder how many people actually even visit these places. The Indianapolis Library was inhabited mostly by homeless who were going in to get out of the cold and the mothers and the children and the grandparents wouldn't go there because the cities had become so dangerous due to the protests and the drugs and the crime that they didn't even go to the libraries anymore. And why are they becoming so dangerous and corrupt?
Well, because we've been getting away from Christian values that keep those downtown cities and libraries safe. I hear often from Christians, they'll say things like this, even pastors, they'll say things like, "We can't expect non-believers to act in Christian ways." Or "We can't expect to hold them to the same standard that we would hold Christians found in the word of God." And while there's some degree to truth in that, you're held captive and in to the slavery of your sin. I don't expect someone like that to be singing the Hallelujah chorus if they don't know the Lord. However, at the end of the day, God's values and His law applies to everyone.
That's why there is a day of judgment for everyone. That's why there's not only a heaven, but there is also a place of wrath and judgment. Because why? Well, because this whole world belongs to God and everyone in it. And if we want our neighbors to come to know Christ, we can share the gospel with them while they're in the midst of their rebellion. But we can also share Christ with them by keeping them safe and protecting their families and their jobs by having a stable economy that is based on biblical principles and a stable society where they're not getting raped and pillaged and stolen from and abused because biblical values went down the drain because Christians decided that they don't really account or need to be applied to the non-Christian world.
That's silly. God has commissioned us to be the culture creators rather than the culture complainers. So rather than whining about the culture and how bad it is, why not determine to become winners who determine what the culture will be by engaging in the public square? That's what our founders had in mind certainly, and certainly they had a moral standard that was largely informed by the scriptures. So they understood if you wanted a good society where your neighbors weren't stealing from each other and they were helping out and protecting one another, you needed to have a moral value system that permeated that culture, not just the born again Christians who are in the church. And so they would read, they would speak and they would tell stories, and they would do everything that they could to infuse the culture with biblical values.
It was in the courts, it was in the government, it was in the family, it was in the schools, it was in the church everywhere. That's why we need to be in the public square. It's why I appreciate you, Gary and Dr. Dobson for not just staying within our ivory towers and our Christian silos and our Chick-fil-A prayer huddle meetings, but we get nourished by Chick-fil-A, and then we go out into the marketplace and we actually stand for righteousness in the public square as salt and light not only for believers and not only to get non-Christian saved, but to bring the blessings of heaven to our city for the good of our city so that people will see the goodness of God, not only in salvation, but also in the influence that Christianity will have on our society.
Gary Bauer: You're absolutely right. I mean, look, Christians have been pushed out of the public square on occasion in a variety of ways, but I think on balance, Kirk, we've surrendered the public square
Kirk Cameron: 100%.
Gary Bauer: We've walked away and said, "Well, it's either beneath me or that's not what I'm called to do." It's very sad because the first amendment of the Constitution in the country we are so blessed to live in guarantees us the right of free speech, of free assembly and the right of worship, and yet we seem to let these things wither away from lack of use. So you very, I think wisely went to the very libraries that were doing the drag queen reading hours and said, "Look, we just want to have an event here just like that other event. We'll put it on, doesn't require any..."
And I think if I recall some of the interviews I've seen, it was kind of shocking to you that these libraries that say they were all for freedom of speech and the right to read any book you wanted, suddenly had all kinds of excuses why you couldn't use or in response to that, you had the courage to say, "Well, you know what? I'll see you in court." Again something that not a lot of other Christians would necessarily. I think sometimes Christians get a no and they go, "Oh, okay, nevermind." But you wisely wanted to use the freedoms that God has blessed us with in this country.
Kirk Cameron: Yeah. We increasingly hear these terms about diversity, equity, and inclusion. Well, let's think about this for a second. So diversity, well, you'd think an organization like a public library that's committed to diversity would want a diversity of books and ideas and thoughts. That they're really for equity, that there would be fairness in access to these public spaces. And inclusion means you're not going to shut anybody out and say no because they're different. Well, one of the best things to do when someone is lying is to hold them to their own standard and say, "If you're all about inclusion, why won't you include me? If you really want diversity, why are you insisting on a monoculture of messaging that doesn't include any diversity? Well, why are you being unfairly resistant to me, but you're welcoming with open arms, people who agree with you?"
And that actually exposed the fraud that was going on here with some of these librarians. And let me say, I am pro library, I am pro schools, I am pro books, but most of the people in the cities that I've gone to are anti hypocrisy. They're anti lewdness, they're anti-obscenity, they're anti inappropriate content for children. And when those librarians wake up the bear, the mama bear and the daddy bear and the grandma and grandpa bear, what they find is that there's actually a lot of passion and courage out there for the right values and they're beginning to stand up.
And I see that more and more across the country. So I'm really grateful that God's given me an opportunity to be used by Him in this small way, simple way, reading books to kids to wake up this army of compassion that is, I think, coming to life after a long winter's nap in our complacency and in our comforts and realizing that we have something rare and precious in this country and we need to contend for it in the public square.
Gary Bauer: No question about it. When we don't go into public square, our place in the public square is often taken by people that want to build a completely different society.
Kirk Cameron: 100%. Somebody will.
Gary Bauer: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Dobson. I don't know if you ever came across that we wrote this book, Children at Risk, seems like a gazillion years ago, but the whole point of the book was that there was a great battle raging for the hearts and minds of our children, and the winner of that battle would get to teach those children what to believe about love and sex freedom and slavery, life and death, and that's exactly what has been playing out. So that brings me to your latest book. I want to be sure that we have time to talk about this, The Fox, the Fair and the Invention Scare. Now, I believe it's just come out recently. Tell us a little bit about that book and how people will get it.
Kirk Cameron: Yeah. Well, you can find this book at bravebooks.com. That's bravebooks.com. It's called The Fox, the Fair and the Invention Scare, and it's all about teaching children how to love their enemies. When you think about what kids are seeing in the news today and what they're hearing about on their social media feeds, it's about Hamas and the Palestinians versus Israel and it's the Republicans against the Democrats. You've got people at each other's throats, you've got brothers fighting against brothers, and that is very discouraging and I think produces an attitude of antagonism and even hatred in the hearts of our children.
We've got to show them a better way, and that's why I wrote this book. Jesus said, "You've heard it said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you, love your enemy and do good to those who hate you." That's what this book is all about. And it's a great story about two families that have been feuding for generations. You have the fox family and you have the giraffe family, and they're at a fair where inventions are created and something terrible happens to both of their inventions and one of them does the unthinkable. He helps his opponent, he helps the one that's competing against him to win.
And in doing that, it changes the relationship between the two families. And I think this is a message that we need to share with our children. So if you want to find out more about this book and all the other brave books, you can go to bravebooks.com and even get my book for free right now if you sign up for the Book of the Month Club, which delivers a new book every month to your front door or your grandchildren's front door with a pro God, pro-America value, you just go to bravebooks.com.
Gary Bauer: Wow. Fantastic. So you intend, I assume from that to write some additional books, but you all have other authors at Brave Books, is that correct?
Kirk Cameron: That's right. Brave Books works with dozens and dozens of authors. And these are conservatives, these are Christians, these are people who care about the things that we care about. And they're committed to investing in the space of the hearts and minds of children. So there are books that talk about the value and sanctity of life, like Little Lives Matter, there's books like As You Grow, that I wrote all about the Fruit of the Spirit and how to grow those sweet fruit throughout the different seasons of your life. And then things like the First Amendment, the Second Amendment, not just believing everything you read in the news but searching for the truth.
There's all kinds of great books in there. One of my favorites is called The Island of Free Ice Cream, warning children about the dangers of socialism. The Island of Free Ice Cream. So they're great, great books. And what I really love is at the very back of the book, there are activities and games for you to play with your children that underscore the values in the story combined with Bible verses to root those values and games and stickers and maps and all sorts of things to make it fun for your kids. I would say primarily Brave Books is catering to kids who are four to eight years old, four to 10 years old.
Gary Bauer: Kirk, some people might say, "Oh, come on, you're introducing them to these sorts of subjects at that age." Look, I can tell you from my own experience again at the Department of Education and elsewhere, children at the earliest ages are being exposed to the wrong messages across everything you deal with in life, including your reference to economic systems.
Kirk Cameron: That's right.
Gary Bauer: It's sad that that's happening, but it is something that we need to be aware of and help counter.
Kirk Cameron: That's right.
Roger Marsh: Roger Marsh here, jumping in for a brief moment with a reminder that today is Giving Tuesday. And thanks to the generosity of special friends of the ministry here at Family Talk, we have a matching grant of $75,000 in place for today only. This means that your gift today to the JDFI will have double the impact. Remember, you can give a gift online at drjamesdobson.org or do so over the phone when you call 877-732-6825. And please know how much we appreciate your prayers and your generous financial support today here on Giving Tuesday. Now let's rejoin Gary Bauer and his guest, Kirk Cameron for the conclusion of today's edition of Family Talk.
Gary Bauer: If I had to make a wild guess, Kirk, I would say that you're an optimist about the future. Now we're all optimists about the future. The way this whole thing ends, we know is with the return of our Lord, but are you optimistic about America and whether America will be around when our Lord returns?
Kirk Cameron: Well, you've got a lot to talk about there. I have great optimism because of the scriptures that give us a window into the faithfulness of God. And I have great optimism because of history which shows us God keeping His promises. And I can't think of any nation's history that you would've thought would have been only positive and promising than the nation of Israel. And then you see that nation get totally wiped out 2,000 years ago and destroyed, and you think, what in the world? And yet does that mean that God is done with His people? Well, no, it actually doesn't.
The Scriptures tell us that the glory of the Lord will cover the land of the earth, like the waters fill the seas, that the gospel has victory written all over it, that the kingdom is growing, it's not shrinking, it's winning, it's not losing. The church starts out with a dozen followers of Christ, and today we have over three billion people on the planet who named the name of the Lord. And so I say, I don't know what happens to America in the end. I don't know how long we will be here, but I don't subscribe to the theology that says we've got it so bad right now with drag queen story hours and critical race theory and what's happening in the Middle East that I think the rapture must be on time to be here by Tuesday.
I don't think like that. I think and say during the Roman Empire it was far worse than anything we're experiencing today. It was worse under the Egyptian empires and Pharaohs, and it can get much worse than this and it can also get better because times of revival come during economic collapse, spiritual apathy, moral decline, and political corruption. That's when the Great Awakening has taken place in America before. So why can't we pick up the word of God and begin to apply it to our personal lives, to our families, to our churches and our civil government and see another revival in America today? I believe we can, and I'm praying that I can be a part of it.
Gary Bauer: Well, Kirk, I'd like to ask you to do exactly that. You've obviously are spending a good bit of your adult life in caring for and trying to rescue America's children from all sorts of bad influences. We would be grateful if you would close us out with a prayer for our kids and all the temptations they're facing, all the false information that's out there, all the things in social media and the popular culture that entices them away from faith, family and freedom. So if you would feel comfortable to do that, that would be fantastic.
Kirk Cameron: Oh, I'd love to. Let's pray. Our Father in Heaven, we are so grateful. You tell us in your word that the joy of you, Lord is our strength. God, give us joy because we need strength. We need to be strong and courageous. Lord, it's so easy for us to get discouraged and dismayed, to be terrified. God, would you please remind us that you are Yahweh, our God, and you are with us wherever we go because we're your kids. You say you're never going to leave us, you're never going to forsake us. God, we pray for our children. We pray that you would strengthen them. We pray, Lord, that we as parents and grandparents will be faithful to teach them of the mighty deeds of God to speak truth to them and to love them.
Lord remind us that this isn't just about information transfer with regard to the Romans road or the four spiritual laws, this is a heart transfer of values, of love and of faith from us to them. God, help us be the conduits of heaven to earth and reach our children. And Lord, I also pray for all the overwhelming forces of goodness. I believe that you win. I'm not afraid for our children because you are a faithful God. What I am seeing in terms of destruction is, Lord, you're so powerful, your gospel is so unstoppable and overwhelming that you are extinguishing darkness and evil one heart at a time as the gospel goes out, and I pray that you would amplify that. That there would be a tidal wave Tsunami of your power to save souls, to transform homes and marriages that would sweep across this land, and we would see revival again. And we ask this in Jesus' name. Amen.
Gary Bauer: Amen. Hey, thank you Kirk. This was fantastic to spend time with you. Dr. Dobson sends his best wishes to you and all of us at JDFI pledge to keep you and your efforts and our prayers and just want to encourage you. We continue whenever we can to promote Brave Books and specifically what you're doing and anytime you need an outlet to go on and bring a word to the door's always open for you. God bless you and thank you for spending this time with us over these last two days.
Kirk Cameron: Thank you, Gary, and thanks Dr. Dobson and everybody on your team, Joe and Paula and Mark and Tori and everybody over there is just so great. And I appreciate all the good things that you're doing. Keep it up
Roger Marsh: Well. What a beautiful prayer for our nation's children. And with that, we have reached the conclusion of our two-part conversation featuring Gary Bauer and his special guest, Kirk Cameron here on Family Talk. If you'd like to listen again to today's program or to share this conversation with a friend or a family member, remember you can do so very easily using the JDFI Family Talk app right on your smartphone, or visit us online at drjamesdobson.org/familytalk. Now I'd like to remind you once again, today is Giving Tuesday.
It's a cultural and social media phenomenon that has really grown over the past several years, takes place the Tuesday after Thanksgiving. And thanks to the generosity of some special friends of our ministry, we have a $75,000 matching grant for this special day. If you're sensing God leading you to partner with us, we would love for you to consider making a gift to the JDFI today in support of our ministry here on this Giving Tuesday. Your prayers and financial support really allow us to keep going and growing strong.
To make a donation online, go to drjamesdobson.org. That's D-R-jamesdobson.org. To make a donation over the phone, you can call us at 877-732-6825. Make your donation of any amount in support of the JDFI today here on Giving Tuesday. Again, the number to call is 877-732-6825. I'm Roger Marsh, and on behalf of Dr. James Dobson and all of us here at the JDFI, thank you so much for making us a part of your day. May God continue to richly bless you and your family as you grow deeper and stronger in relationship with him.
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.