Charlie Kirk: America at a Turning Point - Part 2 (Transcript)

Dr. Dobson: Well, hi, everyone. I'm James Dobson and you're listening to the James Dobson Family Institute. I do hope that you heard our program yesterday when we featured Charlie Kirk on our show. I thought that was one of the most inspirational interviews we've done all year. If you would like to access it, you can go to the broadcast page of our website at Now, when we came to the end of our time together, we continued to talk and today we're going to air the balance of that conversation.

Charlie Kirk is a brilliant young man of 26 whom God is using in a wonderful way. He has a podcast called The Charlie Kirk Show and he reaches over 100 million people on social media. He also speaks on dozens of campuses such as Stanford, Brown, Cal Berkeley, UCLA, the University of Texas, and many other prestigious but very, very liberal universities where, frankly, you would not expect to hear a conservative Christian. His organization has a presence on more than 2,000 high school and college campuses led by 130 paid full-time staff. It's called Turning Point USA.

And Charlie Kirk holds an honorary doctorate from Liberty University. Does that convince you that this young man is worth listening to? With that, let's here the balance of my interview with Charlie Kirk here on Family Talk.

You were interviewed several weeks ago by Pastor Jack Hibbs. He's the pastor of Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. It was a fascinating discussion. You and Jack talked for, I guess, two hours nonstop and I sat riveted as I heard you articulate where America is at this point and what's our direction and what is likely to lie ahead for us and what are your major concerns. I wish every Christian could have watched that video. I don't know if it's still available, but it was powerful and I want to pick up with some of the things you talked about. America really is on the edge of a cliff right now, isn't it?

Charlie Kirk: It really is, Doctor, and we're at a cultural inflection point where we are going to decide who we are as a country. Are we thankful that we live in America or are we angry that we live in America? Who are we as a country? What is our history? Is it something that we can learn from and be proud of that is a hero's journey or is it something worth completely eliminating and abolishing? Are we a country that really wants to judge people on their immutable characteristics? Are we a country that wants to empower people from all across the world to be able to succeed?

So all of these questions are now being asked in a very direct way. And quite honestly, some of these questions were settled long ago as part of the American ethos or the American Trinity, if you will, of E Pluribus Unum, In God We Trust, and the idea of Liberty, which of course the Liberty giver being God. And so we have a serious task at hand to be able to preserve and save this Republic, because as things stand right now, there is a very serious and dedicated, motivated, and well-funded activist campaign to try to destabilize Western society and we must speak very clearly and confidently about it and do something about it.

Dr. Dobson: I heard Tucker Carlson on his own show a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if you had an opportunity to hear him when he talked about the fact that we are steadily losing our constitutional rights. He compared us to communist China and said that in some ways China is more free than we are because you can't say certain things, and the politically correct influence is such that we have to think before we even talk. Freedom of speech is now under attack as are all of the rights granted to us in the constitution. I don't know if you saw that program but it really had major implications for the future.

Charlie Kirk: I saw a clip of it. And Tucker is a dear friend, he does an amazing job. And it's true. We are now going into this very dangerous road of both micro tyranny and macro tyranny, where people are afraid to speak their mind without backlash of losing their job and basically losing all of their friends. We also have macro tyranny where we have decided as a country, incorrectly, that salvation and church is not essential.

Dr. Dobson: Our religious liberty is right in the bullseye, isn't it? It's just being attacked on every front.

Charlie Kirk: That's right. And there's a reason for it. The authoritarians will never allow a power to exist greater than their own. And by definition, the church and the gathering of believers, they recognize there is a higher power than the elected officials or the state, and it's Christ, it is God almighty. So the authoritarians, and this is a pattern that they did all throughout the 20th century, they need to remove the church in order to implement a massive, totalitarian power grab. And right now you're seeing how dedicated they are to that, where in Las Vegas, Nevada, you can go to Caesar's Palace but you can't go to Calvary Chapel.

All throughout Southern California, John MacArthur, Jack Hibbs, and Pastor Rob McCoy, they are under persecution and attack because they are gathering and they are using their First Amendment God-given rights to be able to worship. So this is a crisis, doctor, and Christians right now, I believe we have to become much more active and vocal in this time of national crisis. I am worried that the statists and the collectivists and the atheistic activists, they are getting very close to knowing that they can push Christians almost with no backlash at all whatsoever. So I believe it is more ample time than ever to stand for truth and especially with courage.

Dr. Dobson: Has the church been too passive or silent in response to this threat?

Charlie Kirk: It's tough, because I never want to insult the bride of Christ. And some of these churches, I think use Romans 13, which of course is to submit to all rulers of authority as a reason not to gather. I look at it differently which is, first, we are the sovereign in our country, and so we, the people, it's a different recognition than if we lived under an autocrat. But I do. As I think about it and I pray about it, I think too many of these pastors have abdicated their role and their responsibility to shepherd their flock and to create disciples, not just converts of all nations.

I think it's long past time now that the church rise up, reopen their doors safely and correctly and be able to give people ecclesia, the gathering of believers. And God bless John MacArthur, Jack Hibbs and Rob McCoy for doing that. We need thousands- [crosstalk 00:00:07:24].

Dr. Dobson: They're taking the heat right now, aren't they?

Charlie Kirk: Oh, are they ever? Yeah. I mean, just right now, Pastor Rob McCoy, who is my pastor, they issued a temporary emergency restraining order against his church because they've been gathering the last couple of weeks. Jack Hibbs is under constant persecution from the governor's office, and John MacArthur is at risk of everything being shut down in Southern California, having the water turned off and the power turned off. And this is very disturbing because it's not about the gathering. If it was about the gathering, Doctor, they would say that the 200,000 people in downtown Los Angeles that were organizing under BLM incorporated would not be allowed to do that.

If it was about safety, they'd closed down the cannabis distributor. If it was about safety, they would say, "You can't go to a Walmart or a Home Depot." It's not about that. They have been looking for an excuse to persecute, attack, and silence the church for decades. They have found it and it's unequally applied to Christians and believers.

Dr. Dobson: Charlie, let's talk about socialism and what it means. Are we really toying with that whole change of way of life and departing from the constitution and the privileges and rights that it's granted to us.

Charlie Kirk: Yeah, I'm afraid we're headed in that direction. More and more young people embrace socialism than capitalism. My generation looks more favorably on Marxist ideas than on capitalistic ideas. Socialism is one of the most dangerous human experiments in recorded history. Over 100 million people that we know of perished under socialist ideas in the 20th century. And socialism can happen very gradually and then suddenly. Before you know it, your country is ruled by a small ruling class, there is no middle class, it gets destroyed, and the government comes in and basically controls everything.

This is how a country basically decides it no longer wants to exist. If we do embrace these ideas, these Marxist ideas that are immoral, evil, and antibiblical, the repercussions that it will have, not just in the Western world, but all across the world, will be impossible to calculate. Our country right now is going through a crisis of who we are. It's an identity crisis. And if we allow these malevolent Marxist ideas to continue to spread without us confronting and proving them wrong, they will be implemented into public policy and also into the majority of the country.

And one of the reasons this happens is we have not taught our young people proper history, proper constitutional literacy, and they do not understand the difference between Marxism and capitalism or any of the sinister ideas behind it.

Dr. Dobson: Well, we're right around the corner from the next general election. Charlie, what will America look like if the far left and its proponents win the White House, the House Representatives, the Senate, the judiciary, the bureaucracies, the military, the economy, and then the schools where children are indoctrinated so they've control of the next generation? What is the future for America under a regime like that? I answered my own question in a recent newsletter, and I said if that occurs, we are doomed.

Charlie Kirk: Yeah, we really are, and we can't allow it to happen. The left, they are closer to the power they've always desired than ever before. They've seen that they can push churches with very little retaliation at all whatsoever. They see a power grab in the courts and the economy and the culture and the mass media. And if the Democrats take control, the left are able to win, there is no telling what they will do, and they will do it quickly. They will try to pass universal healthcare, they will increase funding for abortions, they'll put younger, more radical people in the US Supreme Court.

They will undo a lot of President Trump's positive foreign policy accomplishments, such as moving the embassy to Jerusalem and recognize the Golan Heights and eliminating the Iran deal. We have seen now for a couple of years the left really reveal themselves. They are a Marxist insurgency movement. They are determined to try to destabilize Western society. This is a generational election, as I call it. It's what country do you want your grandkids to live in? Not the singular individual that's running for the presidency.

In fact, the byproduct of whoever wins will actually probably happen long after either of these candidates pass away. Think about it. And it's going to be 30, 40, 50, 60 years down the road of the country we want to live in.

Dr. Dobson: How do you explain the passion of the far left to destroy all worthwhile human institutions; the family, marriage, law, order, the church, and to create or to replace it with chaos. What is the motive? What's the driving impetus here?

Charlie Kirk: I get asked the question a lot "Well, what do they want?" They really don't know. They don't. All they know is that the current arson of America, the current disintegration, gives them purpose. There really is no end goal, there isn't a blueprint that they're trying to achieve. Some of them have some form of a utopia that they think they can get to. But a vast majority of them that are going on this path are either doing it because they want to assume unilateral political power or that they themselves actually find momentary meaning in convincing themselves that they're doing something moral by trying to disrupt and destroy Western society.

Dr. Dobson: Charlie, perhaps the rioter and the anarchist in the cities and on the streets may not know what he or she wants as you said, but I tell you, I think I do know what the leaders of the organizations want. They want chaos. People can't live with utter confusion where they don't know where their next meal is coming from, but that lends itself to tyranny and that's what the organizers want, which is power.

Charlie Kirk: It's exactly right. They want to make themselves God. They want ultimate power. Chaos is a gateway drug to authoritarianism. When you are able to establish disorder or disunity, it gives license for singular power to be able to control. So, if you look at all the great power grabs in human history, in Cuba or Venezuela or in China or in Russia, especially in the 20th century, you must sow discord, form a civil war, turn people against each other, because at that moment then people want stability. Even if that stability means a total autocracy, fine, just get me out of that piece of momentary chaos that we might be in.

We know that the laws of nature and nature's God work, they work for a reason. And if you disobey those laws, you will be in a state of chaos and that we need order and that we need direction. The left goes a step further. They want the chaos not as an end, but as a means to an end of totalitarianism.

Dr. Dobson: Give us a primer on socialism. What does it really mean? There are people listening to us who've heard that word many times, they don't really know what a socialistic system would impose on us.

Charlie Kirk: Well, socialism violates two out of the 10 commandments. We'll start with that. Thou shall not covet and thou shall not steal. Socialism was theorized by the philosopher... It's hard to call him a philosopher. Let's just call him the author, Karl Marx. I don't know if I want to give him the credit of being a philosopher. He was inspired by a French philosopher by the name of Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who really took exception with the biblical idea of natural or original sin. The communist and the socialist at their elemental philosophical level, they actually believe that human beings are basically good and that it is the system around us that is broken and if we fix the system and therefore human beings will actually be able to live in a state of utopia.

And so socialism is a creative envy, greed, failed utopian promises, and quite honestly, the furthest extension of the worst sinful behavior I think we possibly can have as human beings. It's almost us thinking that we can create heaven on earth, which we know is not true. It's believing that we have all the answers governmentally and socially and societally for all people. And it's also centralizing all power and control to a singular unibody, not decentralizing and giving people freedom and liberty to choose as they see fit. Socialism has been tried well over 100 times over the last 100 years on every single continent of which we have inhabitants and it has never worked.

Not only has it not worked, the result has been a brutal, catastrophic death toll of well over 100 million people. No matter what culture, civilization that Marxism enters into, it will result in a power grab of an autocrat that will exploit the innocent, that will destroy the dissidence, and will eliminate any sort of human flourishing imaginable. From Zimbabwe, which used to be called Rhodesia, to the failed Marxist experiments in Southeast Asia of Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam, to the Korean peninsula, to the Island of Cuba, to Venezuela, we have seen socialism tried everywhere, and it is an evil ideology that we must recognize, spot, and fight back against wherever it rears it's immoral head.

Dr. Dobson: If you want to see where socialism leads, look at Venezuela. That was one of the most wealthy nations in Latin America because of the oil reserves. Look at them now, they're completely destitute. And you said on television, I heard you not too long ago say, "If socialism works, why did the caravans try to come to America and force their way through the border instead of going to Venezuela? If socialism is what they wanted, why didn't they go there?" It never works. Why does it never work? What's wrong with socialism that makes it fail inevitably?

Charlie Kirk: It goes up against human nature, I should say, biblically. It believes that human beings can be perfected. It believes that the state can be an instrument that can be used to try to, let's just say go forth and eradicate the imperfections that might exist previously. And it also inevitably gives far too much power in a small group of people's hands that will use that power and abuse that power. Lord Acton famously said, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely," and he was exactly right. Socialism by definition, if the state is going to control everything, if the government is going to control everything, well, that means a small group of people are going to control everything.

We as Christians know that human beings are flawed by nature. In fact, we believe we are depraved by nature and original sin. So why would you give a small group of people who are inherently sinful power over everything? They're going to abuse that power, they're going to misallocate resources, and eventually, the very worst sociopathic pathological people will then use that power that exists as a reason to be able to destroy and eliminate any sort of opposition to them, which is why the death toll is always correlated with socialism. It will never work because it goes against how God made us. It is unbiblical.

Dr. Dobson: Yet I saw a poll the other day that said 40% of millennials favor socialism. I mean, is it free stuff? Is that's what's driving it?

Charlie Kirk: It's free stuff, is one part of it. It's our university system that has convinced them that this is a good idea. Our university system is heavily socialistic and pro-Marxist that tries to communicate to young people that this has never been tried before. And that is a foolish lie. It has been tried, as I mentioned, over 100 times over the last 100 years. And so young people predominantly favor socialism to capitalism.

And also, a lot of these young people are suffering under massive amounts of student loan debt, they are living in heavily crowded urban centers, they have not been able to find meaning, religiously or spiritually, and so they look to a statist-centered solution, if you will, that will try to give them meaning that only Christ and only God can give them.

Dr. Dobson: The only answer to our crisis, the only answer to the woes that we're going through now is a spiritual revival, a great awakening, a third great awakening.

Charlie Kirk: Amen.

Dr. Dobson: Do you see any evidence of it among the young?

Charlie Kirk: I do. I have young people coming to me in record numbers committing their life to Christ and asking very, very good questions about how they can attend church and that they are seeking ultimate truth. And we must keep that as the primary focus. The one thing I'll tell you, doctor, that's interesting is that I am in the political arena and we have people of all faiths that are involved in Turning Point USA. I have seen more people come to Christ in what we are doing through the Galatians 3 model of the law being a schoolteacher to Christ, because people say, "Charlie, what you say makes sense, what else is there?"

And I say, "Well, I'd love to tell you where this all comes from. You believe in natural rights, how about the natural rights giver and that that sort of organized thinking actually brings people to Christ?" And some of the church disagrees with me on this, and I can tell you, I've mountains of evidence to push back off people that actually came to Christ through politics. So I do think that we are on the verge of another great awakening.

Dr. Dobson: That is the most exciting thing you've said, Charlie, and I just pray that that's true. The Christian people ought to be on their knees every day, especially at this time and what we're facing now. Let's talk about the election. We only have two or three minutes left. But are you a confident about the outcome or are you very concerned at this time?

Charlie Kirk: I'm confident about certain things, I'm concerned about others. I'm a friend of the president, I'm an advocate of his, and I work very hard for his reelection. I think that this race is about to flip upside down. I'm looking at trend lines. I think it's very much in the president's favor, who has been a phenomenal advocate of the issue of life and Kavanaugh and Gorsuch and the supreme court and circuit court judges and a friend of Christians all across the country, so I think it's essential that we get him reelected.

And I think that Joe Biden and his campaign are going to go through a crisis when they actually have to go and campaign and canvas. I am cautiously optimistic that if the president and his campaign continue to play their cards correctly, this race will end up in their favor.

Dr. Dobson: And it'll all come down to turn out.

Charlie Kirk: Yes, sir. That's right.

Dr. Dobson: Christians have a dismal record of not voting. I think it's 75% of Christians do not vote, either don't register or don't go to the polls, which is the same thing. And that's hard to believe. Only 25% will take 15 minutes to go to the polls and let their voices be heard. And that must change, especially this time around.

Charlie Kirk: It has to. It's essential. Christians need to rise up in record numbers and vote for life and vote for Israel and vote for freedom and vote for biblical principles. And the president is the defender of those ideas. He has proven it. It's no longer something that is unknown. And if Christians rise up in record numbers, we can defend the Republic. It really is going to be dependent on whether or not decent, reasonable Christ-filled believers rise up and say, "We are not going to allow secular, humanistic, atheist, malevolent forces to take over our country. If Christians register and vote, it takes 15 minutes, you might be able to save this beautiful country of ours.

Dr. Dobson: Charlie, you are a national treasure. What you say sets my soul on fire. I've never heard such wisdom coming from a millennial who draws what he believes from scripture quite like you do. That is the source of the courage and the strength of character that we see in you, and I want to know what your future is. Have you thought that through? Where are you going?

Charlie Kirk: Thank you for the kind words. I deeply appreciate it. And thank you, I take it to heart. People say, "Well, Charlie, what's next?" And to be honest, I have the greatest job on the planet. I love doing my podcast. I love talking to people. I love organizing them. Wherever God takes me, I'll be blessed by that. But I am so content. I am so filled with gratitude with where I am that I truly mean this. I have nowhere else to go, but to keep on moving forward with what I'm doing.

Dr. Dobson: Do you see a political future for you?

Charlie Kirk: The answer is, as far as I can see, which is not very far, no, because I love what I do too much. I do. But God might have a different plan, who knows? But my plan right now is to keep on doing what we're doing.

Dr. Dobson: Well, I'm asking our listeners to be in prayer for you, Charlie. You're really in a very critical position to communicate with the next generation that just doesn't get a lot of biblical wisdom that you espouse. So, God be with you, God take care of you, and continue doing what He's called you to do.

Charlie Kirk: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. God bless you. It's an honor, Dr. Dobson.

Roger Marsh: Certainly an enlightening discussion about the threats facing our nation today here on Family Talk. Hope you enjoyed Dr. Dobson's fascinating conversation with Charlie Kirk from Turning Point USA. Charlie is truly a rising star in the political arena, and as Dr. Dobson just mentioned, he deserves our prayers and our support. Go to today's broadcast page at and get plugged in with Charlie's organization and see where he will be speaking next. That's, and then click on the broadcast tab at the top of the page.

Well, that's all the time we have for today. Be sure to join us again tomorrow for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks for listening.

Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.
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