Yeah. Whose health? Certainly not the health of the baby. And for that matter, I don't believe it's best for the health of the mother. My heart has been broken over this issue for a long, long time. Ever since I first understood the full meaning in the early 1970s of what abortion really is. I had no idea just how awful it really is. It was profoundly evil then, and it's evil today. This is burned into my memory from that 1970s era. Radical feminists in those days, first referred to unborn children as meaningless protoplasm. Imagine that. If you've seen an ultrasound image of an unborn baby at any age, you know graphically, that each of them is a tiny human being. It's our responsibility as Christians to defend those babies and fight this practice until abortion is outlawed in the land. These medical procedures have been hidden by the what's called today, the fake media.
They don't want anybody to know this story. And it's been done behind closed doors with most people being unaware of what is actually going on. Now, this truth is about to be revealed because there's a film that pulls back the curtain on how this perverse industry operates. And I wish every one of you could see it. It depicts the real life story of an infamous abortion doctor. One of the worst ever. His name is Dr. Kermit Gosnell. And the title of the movie is Gosnell: The Trial of America's Biggest Serial Killer. And it was produced by Ann McElhinney and Phelim McAleer. They are both New York times bestselling authors. They are successful documentary filmmakers, they're investigative journalists, they're writers, producers, and directors, and their focus in this release, is not to manipulate viewers, but to provide the truth. I consider it to be the Lord's honest truth about abortion in a way that would enlighten the public at large.
Dr. James Dobson: And it is powerful and deeply moving. And it's not gory to watch because they protect the viewer, but it does open our eyes to the horrifying reality of abortion at its worst. Ann and Phelim, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us and to discuss your very important new work and welcome to Family Talk.
Ann McElhinney: It's great to be here. Thank you.
Phelim McAleer: Thank you, Dr. Dobson, it's a pleasure to be on.
Dr. James Dobson: Tell us again, the title of this new film.
Phelim McAleer: The film is Gosnell: The Trial of America's Biggest Serial Killer, and it tells the story of Dr. Kermit Gosnell. Many of your listeners will know of him. Many of your listeners, I suspect, won't know of him, because although he is America's most prolific serial killer, the media have really covered up the crimes, covered up the trial, covered up all the evidence that he ever existed, because it puts a very difficult and negative spotlight on abortion. And as we always knew all along, abortion is something that certain people in this country want protected. They don't want a negative spotlight on not, they don't want any negativity shown on it and they'll do anything to make sure that happens.
Dr. James Dobson: Is that why we have read very little about it in the popular press?
Ann McElhinney: Yeah. I think that's fair to say. I mean, we've gotten a lot of very good press on the conservative side, on the religious side, but actually if you think of those really large mainstream media outlets like The New York Times or CNN or NBC, we've had scanned coverage. And this is despite the fact that the film was one of the biggest crowd funded films in history, 30,000 peoples paid $2.3 million to allow us to make the film in the first place. And the story itself is historically significant. It's a massive story. It has significance just in all kinds of ways. How did this ever happen in the first place? How can we prevent it happening again? What does it tell us about the way government operates in places as progressive as Pennsylvania and none of these questions have ever really been answered? Kermit Gosnell is African-American in his early seventies, who ran an abortion clinic in west Philadelphia for 30 years. And for 17 of those years, no one inspected the clinic. And during that time, two women died.
Phelim McAleer: Yeah. And his victims, there's so much there for the mainstream media to tag on. As Ann said, he's African-American, but he had good rooms for white women and bad rooms for black women. The victims, they were mostly minorities. One woman who died was a Bhutanese refugee, and the other woman was an African-American woman. This should have been a mainstream media feeding frenzy. My background is journalism. I know how journalism works. I mean, there are so many angles here for so many stories. But they didn't want to go there because this shines really awkward spotlights on abortion, and they didn't want to go there. And so we have this film, it was a national release. It was in almost 700 theaters. We got two mainstream media reviews, 400 words in The Los Angeles Times, and a review in Forbes. They do not want this out here. They want to shut this down.
The thing about a courtroom trial is that people can't talk politics, they can't give talking points. They have to give evidence. They have to really stand over what they say or it'll be demolished. And abortion did not come out well out of this film. Now, having said that, the film is a procedural. It's like a Law and Order episode. It is entertaining. It's not gory. We want to emphasize that to your listeners. This is a movie. It stars Dean Cain. Dean's one of the most loved actors in America. Nick Searcy directed it. You may know him from Justified. Earl Billings plays Gosnell. It's a proper movie. It's a drama. It's a trial. It's a courtroom drama.
Dr. James Dobson: Describe Dr. Kermit Gosnell for us, the man and the monster.
Ann McElhinney: Yeah. So, we've written a book as well about this story, called Gosnell.
Phelim McAleer: The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer.
Ann McElhinney: And one of the chapters in that is called, Meeting the monster. And Phelim and I both went to the prison at Huntington, in Pennsylvania to meet Kermit Gosnell, who his demeanor in prison is like a guy who's just come in from playing golf. He sang twice to me, he touched my leg inappropriately a few times while we were there, even though I was sitting there with my husband, he lies. You ask him a difficult question about what exactly he was doing at the clinic and he says, "oh, you know about that." And has kind of clever answers for things and is very good at evading questions. He's very, very narcissistic. I mean for a lot of your listeners who might have seen the Hannibal Lecter film, he comes across as that kind of a serial killer, very plausible, charming, highly intelligent, talks about how if he hadn't been a doctor, he could have been a concert pianist. But there's something deeply, profoundly creepy about him. It's very, very chilling and he's a deeply, deeply evil man.
Dr. James Dobson: The subtitle to the books says, The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer. How is it that he deserves that title?
Phelim McAleer: Well, this is where it gets a little bit disturbing. His method of doing abortion was that it would be late term abortion, the baby would be born alive. And he would stab them with scissors to kill them.
Ann McElhinney: He called it insuring fetal demise.
Phelim McAleer: Yeah. And in reality, he did thousands of these in a 30 year killing spree.
Ann McElhinney: And we know that because the grand jury report into the case of Dr. Kermit Gosnell in Philadelphia, said exactly that, that there was no doubt in the minds of the grand jury who heard evidence for almost two years, that he had killed thousands in this way, where he delivered babies alive and then killed them.
Phelim McAleer: And then he also killed several patients. His chief anesthesiologist was a 15 year old girl. He had untrained and unsupervised staff.
Ann McElhinney: He had cats walking around the clinic.
Phelim McAleer: He reused single use instruments. People were arriving at emergency rooms with infections, being mutilated.
Ann McElhinney: He also kept trophies. He cut the feet off babies and kept them in jars.
Phelim McAleer: Put labels. So, he's a classic serial killer, in that he kept trophies and kept mementos of his killing. But however, I want to emphasize, in the film, in the movie, you don't see any of that.
Dr. James Dobson: Have you all been criticized resoundingly for doing this movie and this book?
Phelim McAleer: Of course. They're all these allegations, preaching to the choir, anti-choice this. We're just telling the truth. None of these criticisms actually, funny enough, have ever said, this fact is wrong or-
Ann McElhinney: Yeah, this never happened.
Phelim McAleer: That never happened. Or they've tried to say it. And we know for a fact that this did happen. Some of the things you can't believe happened. And people have brought their teenage children. And one thing they've always said is it's led to some very interesting conversations in the car on the way home. And I was just looking on Twitter there, one moment brought her children. And one of them was a 16 year old. And she said it moved him from being pro-choice to pro-life. But actually the best story we have-
Ann McElhinney: From California.
Phelim McAleer: From California.
Ann McElhinney: From Bakersfield
Phelim McAleer: And so, a group of people were at the theater and they started talking afterwards and there was this mom's group there and there were people there who go to abortion clinics and they all said, "Let's go to the abortion clinic now, after watching this."
Ann McElhinney: Let's get our babies.
Phelim McAleer: Let's get our babies. And they arrived with their babies at the abortion clinic. Inspired by the Gosnell movie, they persuaded a woman not to have an abortion. And now they're going to have the biggest baby shower for this baby when it's born, that you've ever seen. This movie has saved a life. Can a movie save a life? Yes, it can. Can it change a heart? Yes it can. We get all the criticism, doesn't matter after that.
Dr. James Dobson: It's breathtaking to know. I've read some of this man's history and what he did, what he was charged with. And even though we're not going to talk about it here on the radio, and you didn't talk about it in the film, this is absolutely horrific. What took place and how long he got away with it. It really takes your breath away.
Ann McElhinney: 17 years passed and no one inspected the clinic. And if they had, if anyone had crossed the threshold, they would have found very, very unsanitary conditions, really deplorable. There were cats walking through the clinic, the toilets were all backed up with every kind of thing you can imagine. And the staff that Gosnell employed, none of them were nurses. None of them were trained. None of them had anything further than a seventh grade education. So you can imagine their hygiene standards were also not good. One of them, in fact, had Hepatitis C and didn't wear gloves when she was dealing with patients. It was really quite a shocking situation. I mean, the cops, when they eventually rated the clinic, described the scene as deplorable, the worst they'd ever seen. And these were very, very experienced police officers who'd worked in Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia, which is not a Halcyon countryside town or anything. This is a tough, tough town where they would have seen a lot of things, but they'd never seen anything quite like this.
Dr. James Dobson: Even today, many people do not know the tragedy of this man's medical record, do they?
Ann McElhinney: No. I mean, we travel around the country a lot. People have never heard it.
Phelim McAleer: Yeah. The reason we heard about this was because I happened to be in Pennsylvania, promoting another film, a fracking documentary I made. And I looked at the local newspaper when I was there. And I saw about this very interesting local murder trial going on. And I thought, oh, on my day off, because I'm a journalist, I'll go down and look at this interesting murder trial and maybe talk to some journalists. And I walked in and there in front of me were pictures that were just astounding. I heard evidence that was truly shocking. And there a few feet away from me was Kermit Gosnell, America's biggest serial killer. But the most shocking thing of, all the most shocking thing of all was behind me. Row after row, after row, after row of empty seats. The prosecution had made sure they'd got the biggest courtroom in Pennsylvania because they thought they were going to be overwhelmed with reporters and observers and all that. Empty, empty. I'm in the studio here and there's more people in this studio now than there was reporting on that trial.
Dr. James Dobson: This has every evidence of evil all over it, doesn't it? And the whole abortion industry does, in fact.
Ann McElhinney: Yeah. And it's very much helped by this culture of silence and all of these, so-called respectable people like The New York Times and all of those, pretending to care about truth and pretending to care about getting information to people. But in fact, what they're really concerned about is protecting the sacredness of abortion that is almost like a sacrament to them. It's really quite extraordinary. And we've been really shocked by just how difficult it's been for us to get the word out. I mean, our crowdfunding campaign alone, was it a historic crowdfunding campaign. That's a newsworthy aspect of this movie. And yet, it's been ignored, ignored by all those mainstream outlets. And they're clever about it. However, they're very good at promoting pro-abortion content. How many movies are coming out, Phelim?
Phelim McAleer: I think it's three pro-abortion movies coming out in the next year, about the heroic efforts to legalize abortion in this country. They know abortion is in trouble. They know people are realizing finally, what abortion is. They don't want that to happen. They know that if people really knew what an abortion is, then they wouldn't be for it, that it would become a deeply unpopular practice. And they're scared of this. And this is why it's all hands on deck to shut us down.
Dr. James Dobson: Ann, how did you come to be involved in this film?
Ann McElhinney: So Phelim and I are married and Phelim, as he said to you, he came across this story very much by accident. He walked into the courthouse, got the court transcripts. And we read the evidence that he had heard during those days that he was in the courtroom. And we decided there was nothing else we wanted to do, but report on this because there's something really deeply offensive about the fact that it wasn't reported. We're journalists. We like to tell the truth. We like to do the job that you're meant to do. You're not meant to interpret the news. You're meant to just tell the news. And that's what we're doing here. I mean, we haven't done anything except for tell the story. I mean, the movie is very much a telling of how this guy was found, what was discovered about him and how the trial progressed and how eventually he is now sitting in a prison facing... He's got three life sentences that he'll never see the light of day.
Dr. James Dobson: What charges were brought against him when all this came to light?
Phelim McAleer: Originally, he was charged with seven counts of murder and-
Ann McElhinney: First degree murder.
Phelim McAleer: First degree murder and the murder of one patient. The grand jury, interesting enough, wanted to charge him with over a hundred kinds of murder. But that was vetoed at the very highest level of the Philadelphia Police Department, because they're very, very proud of their declining rate of violence in the city and their declining murder rate. And they realized that if they allowed these murder charges to go ahead, the hundred murder charges, then that would show a spike in their murder statistics. So in the end, he was convicted of three murders, convicted of killing a patient, convicted of 240-
Ann McElhinney: Violations of the existing abortion law.
Phelim McAleer: And then later on, he was charged with-
Ann McElhinney: With the drug offenses.
Phelim McAleer: Being one of the biggest distributor of illegal drugs in Pennsylvania. And he received several life sentences for that as well.
Dr. James Dobson: He should've gotten the death penalty from my point of view. I can't imagine the man being allowed to live.
Phelim McAleer: Interesting you should say that. It was capital murder, so he was charged with capital murder offenses and the death penalty was on the table. We've spoken to the jury, the jury were perfectly willing and ready to give him the death penalty, but this was Pennsylvania. And I think the prosecution knew that he was going to do appeal and appeal and appeal. And he was in his seventies, the chances of him being executed were low. So they did a deal with him that if he waived his right to appeal, they would just ask for life without parole, not the death penalty. And he did that deal and waved his right to appeal. And once he was sentenced to life without parole, he immediately went to prison and immediately started appealing and appealing and appealing. He broke his word to the prosecutor. It seems you can't trust a murderer these days.
Dr. James Dobson: And of course, the abortions under law were legal.
Ann McElhinney: Yes, but there was a distinction obviously because he delivered babies alive and then cut their necks with scissors when they were already alive. So, there's a difference between that.
Dr. James Dobson: That makes me sick in my stomach.
Ann McElhinney: And I can tell you that it made the jury sick to their stomachs. I mean, one of the most powerful sections of the movie, and we're getting this report from all over the country, people are seeing the movie, where the legal abortion doctor is asked on the stand to describe what a legal abortion is like so that the jury can make a distinction between that and murder. And I can tell you that we spoke to a lot of the jury and they found the distinction to be unworthy of a distinction.
They thought that the two things were very much the same and they thought it was unfair almost that he was being charged with murder when what a legal abortion is, seemed to them to be murder as well. So they were very, very shocked by what was legal. And I think this is one of the really valuable parts of the movie, is that people get an education on how a legal abortion looks and people, when they hear it, don't like it. And we didn't make it up. It's actually taken from the trial transcripts from two different abortion doctors who gave evidence during the trial and were asked that question to explain to the jury, how is it done when it's done well? And I can tell you, the jury were not impressed with that description. They found it as shocking. And in fact, in one case more shocking than the description of the murders that Gosnell committed.
Dr. James Dobson: Well, we're out of time. Let me just thank you all for having the courage to tackle this subject. It's so controversial. And yet somebody had to tell the truth and the two of you stepped up to get that done. And the man is now in prison. That's, I guess, the least that we could have expected to come out of this trial. But it's probably happening in a similar way in other places, would you think?
Ann McElhinney: Absolutely. Yeah. We've no doubt. We've no doubt about that. Go on our Facebook page, Gosnell Movie, Facebook page, if they want to write to us, if they want to ask us any questions. We've got people all over the country writing and telling us amazing stories. We've got photographs of people who've been to see the movie. Children, young people's groups, it's very inspiring.
Phelim McAleer: The people wanted this movie. They paid for it through crowdfunding. And then when it came out, they wanted to support it, regardless of the mainstream media's attempt to suppress it. And we want to thank people for that. Many of them are your listeners.
Ann McElhinney: Yeah. We're very, very grateful to them.
Dr. James Dobson: We've been talking to Ann McElhinney and Phelim McAleer. And I want to say to our listening audience, you owe it to your consideration of the value of life to at least inform yourselves of what has gone on and what is probably still going on. And we need to continue to fight for the value of life and the preservation of these tiny babies who can't speak for themselves. Thank you folks for being our guests and for creating and helping you create this movie. I have not seen it, but I can imagine what it says and you can be sure I will see it. And I do hope millions of other people will do the same thing. Keep up the good work and thank you again for your courage.
Phelim McAleer: Thank you.
Ann McElhinney: Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Dr. James Dobson: Well, that conversation with Phelim and Ann deeply moved me and I hope it did you. You know what else I was thinking as that conversation unfolded, I was concerned about the woman out there who aborted a child, perhaps at a much younger age. She could have been a teenager, she could have been put under a lot of pressure by her family or by her friends. And as she listened to this conversation today, she was deeply regretful and guilty before God for what took place. If you're one of those ladies, I want to say to you now, there is no sin which God cannot forgive. In fact, that's why Jesus died on the cross for all of us. For every one of us has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And rather than struggling with an earlier decision that you deeply regret take it to the cross. And I know that the forgiveness and reconciliation is part of what Christianity is all about, and I don't want you to leave this program today, feeling wounded for something done earlier.
But let me also say the precious life that is inside a mother's womb must be protected from the evils of abortion and monsters like Kermit Gosnell. If you are pregnant and wrestling with this decision, or if you know someone else who is, I trust that you will go to a crisis pregnancy center and they will provide help and encouragement to you. They will give you, most of them, an ultrasound of the baby that's inside of you and they will help you make the right decision. If you don't know where such a clinic is, there's an organization we're affiliated with called, The Human Coalition and they will help you locate such a ministry. Their mission is to truly care for mothers and their families through this process and to provide support along the way. Learn more about their organization on our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org. Now, you'll also find information about Phelim and Ann's documentary, Gosnell as well. And that's at drjamesdobson.org, and then click on the broadcast page.
Roger Marsh: Well, that's right, doctor. I'm Roger Marsh. And boy, I was sure moved by today's broadcast. The horrors of abortion continue around the world and even in our own country, one of the most affluent and prosperous nations on the planet. An estimated 62 million abortions have been performed since the Roe V. Wade decision in 1973. But Dr. Dobson, you are so right, there is hope, forgiveness and redemption in Jesus Christ, no matter what has happened in your past. I want to mention that Ann and Phelim's movie, Gosnell, The Trial of America's Biggest Serial Killer, is available to watch on demand. You can access it almost everywhere that movies are streamed and we encourage you to do so. For more information how to watch the film, visit gosnellmovie.com. That's gosnellmovie.com. And you can find all the information there, or you can visit drjamesdobson.org/broadcast and we'll have a link on that side as well.
Now, if you have any questions about Family Talk or the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, won't you give us a call? We're here for you 24 hours a day, seven days a week to take your call and to pray with you as well. Our number is (877)732-6825. That's (877) 732-6825. Thanks for joining us for this important edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. May God richly bless you and your family this day and every day.
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