Roger Marsh: Hello, and welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. Roger Marsh here, and we have an important interview to share with you today. Dr. Tim Clinton, our co-host here on Family Talk will be leading the conversation. Dr. Clinton is also the resident authority on mental health and relationships here at the JDFI. He's the president of the American Association of Christian Counselors, a licensed professional counselor, and a licensed marriage and family therapist. Dr. Clinton's guest today has an equally impressive resume. His name is Brad Dacus. Brad is a good friend of our ministry, and Dr. Dobson has had him on the program here before.
Dr. Dobson felt that it was time for an update from the west coast, and so Brad will give it to a is here during the next half hour. He's the founder and president of Pacific Justice Institute, a nonprofit legal defense organization. He's doing incredible work out there. He earned his Juris Doctor from the University of Texas School of Law, and coordinated religious freedom and parental rights cases throughout the western states, before founding Pacific Justice Institute in 1997. Brad can be heard weekly on the Dacus Report on more than 700 radio stations nationwide. He has also appeared on multiple national outlets, including the CBS Evening News, MSNBC, and Fox News here now to introduce PJI and Brad Dacus is our own Dr. Tim Clinton.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Welcome to Family Talk, a division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Dr. Tim Clinton, your co-host today. It's a pleasure to tell you about an amazing organization that exists just for you and your family. A legal nonprofit with a mission to defend, listen to this, without charge the religious freedoms, parental rights, and other civil liberties of people who cannot defend themselves. One that works with legal expertise to diligently provide clients with dedicated exceptional legal support, completely funded, again, by generous supporters. Yes, you heard me right. That organization does exist, and it's called the Pacific Justice Institute. Today we're going to learn a lot more about what they're up to and what they stand for, and how they're standing in the gap for us all. Brad, it's such a delight to have you joining us here on Family Talk. I know you've been on with Dr. Dobson before, but welcome back.
Brad Dacus: Oh, it's great to be on the program. Thank you.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Dobson sends his regards. His wife, Shirley, I know they have such affection for you and the work you all are doing there, and I know he wanted me to make sure and tip the hat to you.
Brad Dacus: Yeah. They've both been a big blessing to my life, both professionally, as well as personally. I remember when I was courting my wife, and I talked to Shirley and she says, "Oh yeah, green light." Of course, Dr. Dobson has been just an inspiration. He's always been so down to earth with people, non-pretentious, and just the love of Christ that he has flowing from him with each person he talks to and helps and serves has been an example for me in how we function at Pacific Justice Institute.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Brad, these have been some pretty tough days. I think, especially for people of faith, and it's for everyone. When you think about COVID pandemic hitting a couple years ago, with the lockdowns, the loss, the loneliness, and I think people are exhausted. They're frustrated. By the way, throw in the censorship, the suppression, and robbing people of "their voice." It's like this battle between light and darkness against the conservatives and the left, if you will. Brad, these are tough times. What are you seeing as you're out there, just on the front lines every day?
Brad Dacus: When we founded this organization, Pacific Justice Institute, back in 1997, I thought I had some idea of what was coming in the future. I didn't. Things have moved so fast, so degenerative in some ways, so challenging in some ways, that I didn't think I would even see this in my lifetime. Especially in just the last few years, and by God's grace and sovereignty, we've actually exploded in the last few years. We've been around since 1997 with our attorneys doing all our work without charge, but we now have offices in 16 states coast to coast.
One of our hallmarks is to make sure that everyone gets help, not just to cherry pick high profile or big game cases. Needless to say, the last three years, we have been overwhelmed. But, by God's grace, we've been able to rise to the occasion, and we have a record number of cases in litigation all across the country. The good news, the big picture I like to leave people with right up front, is this. First, none of this takes God by surprise. After an election, I go through Revelations, and I notice every word, every verse is still there.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yeah.
Brad Dacus: Nothing takes God by surprise. He doesn't want us anxious and upset over this stuff, because He is God, number one. Number two, He's also granted us tremendous grace with our courts. We have a Supreme Court that is more pro-religious freedom, pro-life, pro-parents' rights, I believe, than any Supreme Court in my lifetime, maybe even in US history. We've got great federal judges, and it's allowed us as we have the greatest challenges ever facing our nation, as we faced as an organization across the country. At the same time, we have full force accelerated to the max, because we have a confidence of our federal courts and our Supreme Court, what the end game is going to be. That has been very reassuring as we have been more on the offense now than ever before, with a large footprint to do it with.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Brad, I want to make sure our listeners, again, understand where you're anchored from. You come out of Orange County, California.
Brad Dacus: California.
Dr. Tim Clinton: You were right in the thick of all of it early on when the religious liberty battles were going over about churches closing or being shut down, and more, and the whole state of California, everybody had their eyes on the governor and what was happening out there.
Brad Dacus: Yeah, California was probably the worst, which is sort of the reputation when it comes to religious freedom or pro-life or parents' rights, and that's why I started in California. But, this was very challenging. What we did when they first shut down the churches, we assessed it and we deliberately held off, because we wanted to make sure the case was well situated, so we had a great disparity between how the churches were treated versus the liquor stores and Home Depot and everyone else. We waited for that sweet spot, and we filed our lawsuit. Others had already filed lawsuits and they were shot down, but we were very strategic. We filed that lawsuit. The federal district court said no to us. They said, "No, we're going to let the governor continue to let the churches be shut down." Then we appeal it to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. They also ruled against us. But, then we filed a strategic emergency writ with the United States Supreme Court. Now, just to get a case heard by Supreme Court is less than one in a hundred. Okay?
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yep.
Brad Dacus: But, our chief counsel, Kevin Snyder, did such a brilliant job putting it together, and we had people praying. The Supreme Court took it up, and in three days voted six to three ordering California, open those churches now. It sent ripples across the nation.
Dr. Tim Clinton: It did.
Brad Dacus: It was a major turning point, along with some other cases, but a major turning point in putting who were shutting down churches on the defense, and we have been very aggressive with our follow-up litigation. Of course, now we have the second tidal wave, which I didn't know we'd see a second tidal wave in my lifetime. But, the second tidal wave is the oppressive mandates upon people of faith having to get a vaccine in order to keep their job and put bread and butter on the table, or even worse, parents being told that their children has to have the vaccine, even if their child's in a private Christian school. We're dealing with that with a number of states: California, Washington state, New York. We're prepping for litigation in those and other states, other blue states that we are suspect may be coming out with that as well. It's a very challenging time, but I'm very confident at the end of the day, we're going to prevail, and that our courts are going to respect the rights of parents when it comes to the health, welfare, and upbringing of their children.
Dr. Tim Clinton: What I'm wanting to make sure that we get done here, Brad, is that I want people who are listening to be encouraged. To know that, number one, while it seems like the wheels are coming off the bus in our country and that we're losing ground, it's not a bad day when you look at the judges, like you say, who've been appointed during the Trump administration who are in strategic places all the way to the Supreme Court.
Brad Dacus: Right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Then you look at organizations like the Pacific Justice Institute who care strategically about figuring out what cases to represent to help move the needle, to help protect people in this country who have sincerely held religious beliefs, for example, who want those freedoms, who don't want the infringement, who don't want the suppression, who don't want to be censored, who want to have a voice. Who, by the way, I think there's a stirring going on like you've never seen before inside of modern day Christianity, and among conservatives in this country.
Brad Dacus: Yeah. As far as politically, we are about to witness, I believe, another 1980. I believe this last election was the equivalent of 1976. This is what I talked about even before Biden was nominated, was that this was going to be a very tough presidency, and it's going to result in a major shift in 2024, similar to what we had in 1980. I think with that shift, we're going to have incredible reforms, not just on the state level, but on a federal level for religious freedom, parental rights, the sanctity of human life. We're also looking at some great decisions coming down from the Supreme Court.
My prediction, of course, a prediction's only worth what you pay for it, so that's my caveat. But, my prediction is that I think we're going to see Roe versus Wade overturned coming out of the Mississippi Dobbs case, and I believe it's going to be probably a five to four or a six to three with Justice Roberts concurring. We've got a lot of real positive things moving forward, and the key is that we make sure that every pitch doesn't make it past the plate, and that's our goal at Pacific Justice. If there's people out there who are losing their jobs, their religious beliefs were not respected pursuant to the Constitution or Title VII, they need to know that they don't have to go it alone. It's very empowering. It should be very empowering to the body of Christ, and for parents, and for people in the pro-life movement.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Well, it seems like this is a very litigious day in our culture, and we're going to see more and more challenge at the court level. Let me ask you about Pacific Justice Institute. It's my understanding that you guys typically will take on cases maybe that other Christian organizations won't take on.
Brad Dacus: Yes.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Is that true?
Brad Dacus: Oh, yes. It's real common for us to get calls from people, maybe it's a church or a family or whatever who says, "I called such-and-such organization and they said no they're not going to take it up. It's not precedent-setting, or it's just simply not in their area that they get involved in." That's very, very common for us. For example, let me give you some topics, some areas that we cover that others don't cover. Child Protective Services. CPS takes children or threatens to take children from homeschooling families, Christian families, all the time. The local CPS agency gets $8,000 per head that they take on an annualized basis. They have every incentive to not have that child go back to the family. Department of Health and Human Services said that most children who are taken today-
Dr. Tim Clinton: It's horrific.
Brad Dacus: Would be better off staying with their families than being taken. It's like an Oliver Twist crises next to-
Dr. Tim Clinton: Sure.
Brad Dacus: abortion, it's one of the greatest crises that our nation's facing. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of children, their lives being completely destroyed, being thrust into foster care, and often into "families" that are very divergent from a Christian worldview.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Well, they're trying to tell parents how to parent. Isn't that what we're seeing also at the school board level?
Brad Dacus: Oh, yes. On the positive side, I in my life have never seen such an outpouring of passion and concern from parents who in the past say, "Well, school boards, I'm intimidated." They're not intimidated. They may get arrested, they may get thrown out. We've got a case matter we're dealing with like that out of Texas. But, they're willing to stand up and we're willing to stand up with them as we speak. One great thing about these offices all across the country, by God's providence, in just the last few years these have developed, is on twofold.
One is we are better now to make sure that every single school board in America is held accountable. We have an attorney that will appear at any school board, anywhere the American flag is flying, to hold them accountable. Number two, we have the ability to work with these state legislators as they adopt pro-life legislation if Roe versus Wade is overturned, which I'm hoping and optimistic it will be. We stand ready right now to help them adopt legislation. We've already worked with at least a half a dozen states, successfully adopt legislation, protecting women from having to compete with males in female competitions.
Dr. Tim Clinton: That whole gender identity issue really concerns a lot of parents. Yeah, and you're right. Girls sports are being decimated. It's just like, what's happening?
Brad Dacus: Yeah, and locker rooms.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yes.
Brad Dacus: We're helping states and empowering states with specific legislative counsel on how to adopt laws that will protect the privacy of girls in locker rooms from having to dress and in shower in front of a biological boy. Even if that boy does have gender identity confusion, and that does definitely happen, but the overall majority, over 70%, some say it's over 85%, are still sexually turned on by looking at girls. This is an egregious violation of privacy, so we're working on the legislative level dealing with that, as well as some cases that we have that are very important, that we're optimistic we're going to prevail one way or the other.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Brad, I live in Virginia, and I think the consensus is that Virginia went red because of Loudon County, Virginia.
Brad Dacus: Right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: That whole situation up there where the parents lost their mind and the mama bears came out just screaming, saying, "We're not doing this here. Nuh-uh, we're not going to do this." Brad, I think that stuff's carrying over. People are beginning to realize that pushback does matter, that silence isn't an option, and you've got to find your way. I wanted to ask you also, Brad, in the midst of this, it seems like the hinges of what you're trying to accomplish really anchor in two areas: life and religious liberty. If we don't get the life piece right, because it touches so much, and we don't understand religious liberty, which by the way, people now saying that Christianity is the most persecuted faith in the world.
Brad Dacus: Yeah, it's two interesting observations about Christianity in the world. One is, it is the most persecuted faith in the world. More Christians are being martyred and murdered for Christ now than at any time in world history, by far. At the same time, though, more people are coming to Christ, and at a faster rate than at any time in world history.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Sure. It's like the best and worst of times.
Brad Dacus: Yeah, and it's sort of like we see that the spiritual warfare is very intense. This is what we would expect to see, anyway, I think as we get closer and closer to the return of Christ. The spiritual warfare is very intensive. With that, we have incredible challenges, but we also have God moving in a way that warrants great opportunities for us to defend those opportunities to go forward, and especially here in the United States, because we have such a huge impact on the rest of the world. I've done some guest speaking tours in Korea and Hong Kong and in other places, Honduras. But, at the end of the day, the United States is still the headquarters, if you will, if you had to choose one, for sending out missionaries and the work and the influence in terms of media and entertainment, et cetera. What happens here in the United States doesn't stay here. It's spreading across the world. We at Pacific Justice Institute take that to heart.
Dr. Tim Clinton: The three branches of government become important in this conversation. You talk about the legislative branch, the executive branch, judiciary branch. People come back and say, "Okay, the judiciary branch exists for a reason, because we're to faithfully interpret the constitution." Right? That's what this is about. The Constitution is to guide us in what we're doing. But, people also talk about legislating from the bench. Help us understand what that means and the quagmire that's coming with it, because we hear people talking about court packing and strategies, and different things that are going on, or we're waiting for the different judge in this, and the interpretation issue. It becomes frustrating to people.
Brad Dacus: The good news presently, we have six to eight justices on the Court that have some serious reflection as to the Constitution. Justice Sotomayor is a nightmare, in my opinion, in terms of a judge who pretty much rules, from my perspective, on looking at which side she agrees with, and the outcome, and then goes backwards and then makes the case. That's been very disturbing, that's very dangerous. Presently, Judge Jackson is very concerning, because she is very similar to Sotomayor in that regard. Looking at the facts and the outcome that they want, and not really looking at the Constitution and the laws, but rather looking at the parties and deciding who you want to win, and then how do we get there. That has been my perception as to how Sotomayor has carried herself, and whenever I see an eight to one decision, I know who the one is. It's the judge who doesn't want to really apply the Constitution, but rather focus on the outcome. It's extremely dangerous, because it open the door for tyranny.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Sure is.
Brad Dacus: That's the kind of Supreme Court mindset that exists in Venezuela.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Meaning that one party in particular would do nothing but dominate everything. Right?
Brad Dacus: Right, and especially if they're able to pack the court.
Dr. Tim Clinton: There's no balance of power.
Brad Dacus: Right. The judicial branch has to be separate and autonomous to hold the other two in check. If they can easily just pack the court, then the Supreme Court, and the federal court judges in general, become the puppet of whoever's in charge of the White House and the Senate.
Dr. Tim Clinton: If the person just strokes a pen, just, I'm going to do whatever I want.
Brad Dacus: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: That's what you got to shut down.
Brad Dacus: That's what we have in Venezuela and in tyrannical countries. We don't have an independent court system. It's just a yes man to whoever's in power. That is very dangerous, also economically, frankly, to our country, because a nation, and the World Bank Organization did a study on why our country's prosperous. Two reasons they found. One is the extent to which the people of that entry have high personal moral convictions. To do what's right, not because they're going to get caught, but simply to do what's right because it's right. That's the first factor they discovered. Now, this is not a Christian organization, the World Bank Organization. The second factor in determining the wealth of a nation was the extent to which it was a nation of laws and not a nation of men. They treated everyone equally. They had blind justice, so that businesses, corporations, and others could be confident that they could go into that country, invest and be treated fairly and equally under the law.
If our court system is packed, and it becomes just a whim of whoever's in power in the White House, we've lost that fundamental pillar for economic growth and stability. People can be agnostic, they can be atheist. If they want a healthy, wealthy economy, if they want an economic future for the United States, they better look at this very, very seriously. They should also look at what's happening in our public schools with regard to the morality of our children. They're being indoctrinated to believe there is no right and wrong. If it feels good, do it. All things are relative.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yep.
Brad Dacus: That is a death sentence for a people who act, not based on what they can rationalize, but based on what's right and what's wrong. They have to believe in a right and wrong to be able to do that.
Dr. Tim Clinton: It's really interesting, Brad, I think with social media and the airwaves of our day, the insanity or wildness of it, is that it's exposing a lot of this in real time, which is raising our awareness that, oh, wait a second. Politics do matter, because policies matter, and elections do have consequences because it is all about policies, and policies matter because people matter. If you link all this together, then you cycle right back to Pacific Justice Institute. What you're saying is cases then matter, because if we can "follow" and we have an opportunity to follow the Constitution, then we should be able to get this through to protect rights. That's why we're having this conversation today. That's what this is all about.
Brad Dacus: Right. Our cases are exploding across the country, because we make sure no one's left on the side of the road, so they're exploding across the country. At the same time, we've really made it a priority to go up river, if you will, to the laws being passed, as we mentioned earlier, to enabling pastors and churches to register their voters, to have their voice be heard. It's a several prong effort, if you will, to take on the cases and go up river also to deal with legislation, and then to also to empower churches, to elect legislators and school board members who are reflective of their viewpoint, and then go even farther up the river to empower churches to deal with a whole new generation, to save a whole new generation through church homeschool co-ops, which has been exploding.
Do you know, right before the pandemic was when we started the church homeschool co-op campaign. At that time in America, there was just a little over 5% that homeschooled at all. Now it's just under 20% are now either being homeschooled or doing homeschool co-ops. We see a whole nother huge long term opportunity, a major remnant that has been thrust upon us. We need to be faithful with this opportunity and do everything we can to make sure that churches are empowered across America to step up. I will tell you, it is exciting to see how God is moving in this area, that we could be very pivotal in the long term, way up the river, in terms of generations to come.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Well, we believe that and we stand with you. Very exciting to me, this stuff links together, and when stuff links together, people begin to say, "Oh, I see now why we needed to step up and into this moment." There are some fascinating cases that you've been involved with. We're going to talk about that tomorrow on the broadcast, and just unpack this a little bit more, because I think when people hear now the specific cases, it'll make sense. If there are people out there who are struggling or being challenged, pushed, whether it's in a school district or raising their kids, or whatever it is, that's where Pacific Justice Institute comes in. Brad, on behalf of Dr. Dobson, his wife, Shirley, the team at Family Talk, we really appreciate the work you're doing and we're so delighted that you've joined us.
Brad Dacus: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Roger Marsh: Wow. What an exciting and encouraging update on the state of religious and civil liberty in our nation from Brad Dacus. Brad and Dr. Tim Clinton will be back again tomorrow to finish their conversation, so make sure you plan to join us then. You can find more information about Brad Dacus and Pacific Justice Institute by visiting dr.jamesdobson.org, and then clicking on the tab that says today's broadcast. Thanks again for list thing to Family Talk today, and be sure to join us again tomorrow to hear the conclusion of Dr. Tim Clinton's conversation with Brad Dacus of Pacific Justice Institute. I'm Roger Marsh. Enjoy the rest of your day.
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