Roger Marsh: Hello, everyone. You're listening to Family Talk, a listener-supported division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh.
Roger Marsh: Secular culture today often portrays the biblical beliefs of Christians as expressions of bigotry and hatred. And yet that same culture resorts to shaming and pressure tactics to enforce its secular views. So how do you witness for Christian beliefs without arguing feudally or being intimidated into silence? Can we, as believers, respond with truth, gentleness, and Christ-like love showing compassion and not compliance or conformity?
Roger Marsh: Well, these are the issues that Dr. Erwin Lutzer, our guest on today's edition of Family Talk, has given a lot of thought to. His new book is entitled, We Will Not Be Silenced: Responding Courageously to Our Culture's Assault on Christianity.
Roger Marsh: Erwin Lutzer is Pastor Emeritus of the Moody Church in Chicago, Illinois, where he served as senior pastor for more than 35 years. He is a graduate of Winnipeg Bible College, Dallas Theological Seminary, and Loyola University. Dr. Lutzer is also the featured speaker on the Moody Church media podcast, Running to Win.
Roger Marsh: Dr. Lutzer is a prolific author having written the books, Rescuing the Gospel, The Cross in the Shadow of the Crescent, One Minute After You Die, When a Nation Forgets God, and Hitler's Cross which won the Christian Bookseller's Gold Medallion Award. Dr. Lutzer and his wife Rebecca have three grown children and eight grandchildren.
Roger Marsh: Let's listen now to Pastor Erwin Lutzer talk with Dr. Tim Clinton here on Family Talk.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Lutzer, thank you for joining us. It's a delight to have you on this edition of Family Talk.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Well, it's so great to be with you, and I thank God for your wide audience and the influence that you have had throughout the years.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Lutzer, people I believe are exhausted after everything we've been through in 2020. The COVID pandemic, the lockdowns, the racial trauma, the rioting, I think of all the destroying a property, the statutes, the election mess, the vaccine quest and rolled out, so much more that's happened. They're exhausted and they're empty. And a lot of people are confused because they're wondering where are we going? What's happening to America? Well, my children grow up in the America that I knew that I loved and now it's this idea. There's this idea out there that America's bad and we've got to fix it. And people are talking openly about socialism, Marxism, even communism now.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Lutzer, I want you to help us right up front understand how did we get here and why are we on that track? Why are people trying to force that agenda into our culture for such a time as this?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: You know, Tim, it's so important` for people to understand that cultural Marxism is to be distinguished from classical Marxism. Classical Marxism was basically a matter of economics. As Marx taught, the state was to take over the means of production. And having done that then, of course, the government would be able to control everything including wages. And once that happened, everyone would live happily. Because he believed that the real source of all evil was ultimately oppression. And if people were no longer oppressed, they would be free to live together in harmony and with a great sense of satisfaction. Now we think of that as classical Marxism.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Cultural Marxism is a little different. Cultural Marxism says, "We don't need a bloody revolution like happened in China and Russia. We can bring about a Marxist state and we can do so and it can be done incrementally." So that over a period of time, Marxism is introduced. And that can happen by capturing education, by capturing law, by capturing the media, by voting for the right people. Everyone will see how beautiful Marxism really is.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Now what's very important, and I know that your whole ministry is dedicated to help the family, and this is so critical that Marx believed, as I mentioned, that oppression was the key to history. He believed that the nuclear family was to be destroyed. Because after all, it was a unit of oppression because men will oppress their wives, parents will oppress their children, children were taken to church God was the ultimate oppressor. And he believed that if it was possible to destroy the family, all that oppression would end. And he and Lenin both believed that women should work outside the home so that the government can raise the children and teach them how wonderful Marxism is and can go ahead and teach them the errors of creationism and theism and Christianity and the Bible and the rest.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: So all of that has its roots in Marxism. But I want to add a comment here. There are organizations today that may or may not realize the extent to which they are promoting Marxism. For example, do black lives matter? Absolutely, all black lives matter. But the organization that has taken that mantra is Marxist, they admit that.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: And that's why they say on their website that they believe in the disillusion of the nuclear family. Why? Because Marxism says that the family is actually something that has to be destroyed. For another reason too, rich people tend to pass on their inheritance to their children and that breeds inequality, therefore, the family has to go. And we see that happening in our history today.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Let me ask you a question right here, Dr. Lutzer, and that would be somewhat say, "Well, wait a second. There is brokenness in homes. There's abuse, there's violence that needs to be dealt with." In the racial situation in our country, there is racial trauma that needs to be challenged and changed and more. So the oppression issue is there and a lot of people would say, "I get that." But what you're saying, what you're trying to share with us is a little bit different here. They're using oppression to force an agenda ultimately, right? Is that where you're going?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Exactly, and there's something else that has to be emphasized. Obviously, there's oppression. Throughout history, there's been oppression. And I'm sure that there is racial oppression. We are not denying the existence of oppression. But by locating it only in external circumstances and ignoring the sinfulness of the human heart and not understanding that, that's why Marxism has led people down some very dangerous paths.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Lutzer, let's stay with the issue of race for a moment, because you have a lot of different thoughts out there about what it's going to take to deal with the racial trauma and more in our country.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Exactly, and here's the thing that's so important about the racial issue. Saul Alinsky, who lived here in the city of Chicago, he died in 1976. He was a dedicated Marxist. And someone who worked with him told me that Alinsky said, "Never solve problems, but use them." This man said, "We had some good plans to be able to help the under-resourced communities of Chicago," and Alinsky blocked those plans. Because for him, the issue of Marxism was going to be applied to race to his advantage. So his intention was to keep the races in perpetual conflict with one another until the oppressed overcomes the oppressor and achieves cultural dominance.
Dr. Tim Clinton: So it really wasn't about solving the problem then. It was about using it as leverage. Is that what you're saying?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Exactly, and this is what is happening today that was applied to race. It is called critical race theory. See, critical race theory, and we hear about it on the news, is simply this. The world has to be divided into oppressors and the oppressed. If you are an oppressor, usually a white, you are an oppressor even if you were born in the poorest area of the world. The very fact that you are white means that you are an oppressor and you're a person of privilege. But if you're an African-American with black skin, you are among the oppressed and you are not a person of privilege no matter what. In this category, LeBron James, with all of his money and all of his fame would not be a person of privilege, because after all he has a different color of skin.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Now here's the problem that we need to understand. This is totally opposed to what Martin Luther King, Jr. taught us. Martin Luther King said that we should not judge one another by the color of our skin, but by the content of our character. That today is mocked. The whole idea of individualism where individuals can decide and can move on and can work together that of course is totally discarded in favor of this Marxist notion.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Now before I go any further, Tim, this is very important for your listeners. Christianity actually has an answer for this. Because Christianity says, "You know, there isn't really that much difference between us, whether we're black or white or brown or Asian. Whatever we are, we are all equally sinners. And we come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness and having been forgiven, we then ask ourselves, 'How can we work together to make things better?'"
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: But the unity that we have in Jesus Christ when we meet at the Lord's table, there are no black spaces and white spaces and brown spaces. We are all united in Jesus Christ. In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul made it very clear that people are united despite race and background and status. And now we ask ourselves, "How can we improve society?" But we don't have to shout at one another across racial fences.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: To put it very clearly and succinctly, Christianity teaches we really don't have a race problem. We really don't have a skin problem. We have a sin problem. And these courses of critical race theory are intended to tear apart what Jesus Christ died to bring together.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Lutzer, we're going to jump into your book and talk about this cultural Marxism and more attempt to overthrow or to change culture. But before we go there, I want to talk about the Left just for a moment because I think this is important. You said that you believe the Left doesn't think we can be fixed, but rather it needs be redone. This is about changing everything, rewriting it all and the Left doesn't have room for negotiation. It's this way or the highway, basically. Dr. Lutzer, is that how you see it for a moment? Can you explain that to us?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: The Left is using race to discredit our Judeo-Christian heritage. All of us know that racism was terrible especially, of course, slavery. We condemn it in the strongest possible words. But is that reason to destroy our history? You take for example the 1619 Project, which wants to say that America actually began back then when slaves arrived in Jamestown, and America was built on capitalism and slavery. And so what they want to do is to ignore the fact that the document, we are all created equal that we are endowed by our Creator with certain rights, and that's what makes America very unique. Our rights have come to us from God and that we do believe in equality and justice. All that is to be set aside and a new America is going to arise. That's the agenda.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: But here's the point, Marxism applied to freedom of speech. Now that is being carried to our universities today. And that's why it is in my book I quote a professor who says, "Unapologetically, a double standard is called for." We cannot have the oppressors, namely the whites especially the white conservatives, speak. We have to give the oppressed, the LGBTQ community an opportunity to speak and the oppressors have to remain silent.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: And how is that silence achieved? There is such a thing as collective demonization, and this is the way in which it is happening before our eyes. Russia perfected collective demonization and it worked like this. Once the Russian government took someone and canceled them, that's our terminology today, everyone else had to agree. There were people who never met the person, writing letters, condemning a person they had never met and knew nothing about because what they were saying is, "We are also on your side. When you come for the dissenters, don't come for us, and what we need to do is to show our loyalty." If I might remember the words of Winston Churchill, who said, "An appeaser is someone who feeds the alligator with the hope that the alligator will eat him last."
Dr. Tim Clinton: You're listening to Family Talk, a division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Dr. Tim Clinton, your host. Our special guest today is Dr. Erwin Lutzer. He has just released a brand new book called, We Will Not Be Silenced: Responding Courageously to Our Culture's Assault on Christianity.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Dr. Lutzer, I want to go into these ways that Marxism, socialism begins to write their narrative of the future. You begin by saying, first of all, rewriting the past to control the future. You alluded to it. You quoted George Orwell in this, referencing Winston Smith, who said, "Revise the past to make it consistent with the movement." Is that what you see happening?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: You know, Tim, someone actually said in communist countries, "The future is known. It's only the past that is constantly being revised." And the reason for that is absolutely as Winston Smith says in George Orwell's book, "The past has to be attacked in order to build this new future." And in my book, I quote the humanist manifesto, "The humanist manifesto talks about a world community. It's a community without borders, world citizenship, all this is to be brought about." And I just recently read the Klaus Schwab book on the Great Reset and this has to do with COVID and how the world is going to be reset. So all this is part of Marxism, too.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: So when you hear about global warming and the need for a world economic forum to establish equality, monetary equality between all the different countries of the world, you know that the vision that Marx originally had for the whole world is being implemented incrementally. It's very important that when you look at history, you look at the good, the bad, and the ugly. I think that there are things that happened in America that were very wrong. We already mentioned slavery, and that should be discussed. There should be courses that are taught on it and so forth.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: What are those steps that we can take to make things better without looking back and saying, "We have to destroy that which came before." Under communism, remember monuments were destroyed. Books were burned. We saw the very same thing happened here in America. That's not the way forward. The way forward is to say, "Let's study, let's learn, let's listen, and then let's move forward and figure out how we can improve what has happened." You see, the reasoning of the Left is this. Because America isn't perfect, she should be destroyed. And our view is, "No, we're not perfect and we're never going to be perfect."
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: But here's the thing, Tim, that you must understand about the 1619 Project and all of these trends that are taking place, and this goes back to Saul Alinsky. Never compare America with other countries. Because if you do, it's going to be hard for people to hate America once you compared with other countries. So what you do is you always judge it by its highest ideals, show how it has come short, and then vilify it so that you can now say, "We really need a new foundation, a new humanistic Marxist foundation, and we will make right all of the wrongs of the past."
Dr. Tim Clinton: So number one is rewrite the past to control the future. Number two that you really highlight in your book, use diversity to divide and destroy. Dr. Lutzer, help us understand the significance then of diversity. You've alluded to it, but social justice training where all this is going that has become so popular in our culture right now. How does this quote "make things kind of go sideways as we try to understand what's happening to us and the road forward"?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Let's talk about social justice. The Bible is filled with references to the need for justice. The Bible talks about justice under the law. It says that we should take care of and we should identify ourselves with those who cannot speak. We should stand up for the poor and the oppressed. That's biblical justice.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: But that's not what is being taught today in our universities as social justice. Social justice in our universities has to do with sexual radicalism. It means that we affirm same-sex marriage that we accept the transgender attitudes and teachings. It means that there is income equality on a Marxist basis that the government begins to divide up all of the goods.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: So that's all that is involved in social justice. It isn't biblical justice. It's a Marxist view of justice. In a single word, it is basically socialism and trying to equalize everything which always leads into great difficulty.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Let me say categorically that the Bible does not teach socialism. God did not even treat everyone alike. He did not treat Hammurabi like he did Abraham. And Jesus told a parable in which one man was given 10 talents, another five, another three, another two, another one and that's the way life is.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Now we should do all that we possibly can to help the poor. And there are churches here in the city of Chicago who are doing just that. They are ministering to the poor. We have an obligation to do that and it's a privilege to do that. But at the same time, though we seek equality in terms of opportunity, there's no way that we should insist on equality in terms of outcome. We can talk about income equality and I can assure you, Tim, that that will lead to disaster.
Dr. Tim Clinton: So the diversity issue is significant, but here it's used for an agenda.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: In my book, for example, I point out that the Seattle school system now has arithmetic based on race. In other words, what they want to show is you have to show and to understand how arithmetic has been used by oppressors to keep the oppressed in line. Where is this going, Tim? Everything is being reduced to race and we can't move forward as long as we're just shouting at one another, blaming one another. At some point, we have to stop and ask, "How do we work together to make things better?" So, as we mentioned, this is being applied in our universities and elsewhere.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: I make the statement that many students who go to our universities will not be talked out of their faith, but they'll be mocked out of their faith. And it is the cultural pressure that has made the church silent that is causing people to violate their consciences.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: For example, I just read recently of a doctor who said, "When I'm giving advice to a patient, I'm speaking to that patient and I know right well that transgender surgery is going to be of great harm to him or to her. But I can't say it, I'll lose my job." So people in today's culture where you have so much pressure from the culture to maintain silence, oftentimes keep silent in order to keep their jobs. And the question is this. Are we as Christians going to succumb to the pressure of culture, or will we take the cross into the world along with all of the persecution, all of the false accusations and move forward? That's the challenge of the church.
Dr. Tim Clinton: We're seeing that growing trend to stifle or shame those who uphold a Christian or conservative worldview, and eventually they'll be criminalized for it. I saw where you talked about Hitler and what you referenced was the muzzle decree. Can you explain that just briefly what happened under Hitler?
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Tim, this is absolutely important and fascinating. The muzzle decree, when Hitler met with pastors, he shouted at them. And he said, "All that I want you to do is to preach the pure gospel." He said, "I will take care of the German people. You take care of the German church." And Niemoller had the nerve to say to him, "We also will take care of the church, but we also have a commitment to the larger culture and we will speak to that culture." Niemoller ends up in a concentration camp. Why? Because he spoke against the rife in his church. And the muzzle decree said, "You can't do that," and Niemoller said, "I will not abide by it." And these are the kinds of choices we are going to have to make as a culture as well.
Dr. Tim Clinton: And there is coming a day, I believe it. If we continue on the pace and the trend we are seeing before our own eyes, this could happen soon.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: So concerning. What a wonderful conversation we've had so far. Your new book, We Will Not Be Silenced: Responding Courageously to Our Culture's Assault on Christianity, this message is so important. Would you be willing to stay with us for a day, two? We've got so much more to cover, and this is an amazing piece of work. I believe with all my heart, Christians, conservatives need to hear this message and to hold tenaciously to it for such a time as this.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Thanks, Tim. I'll be back.
Roger Marsh: You've been listening to part one of Dr. Tim Clinton's conversation with Pastor Erwin Lutzer here on Family Talk. To learn more about Pastor Erwin Lutzer and his book, We Will Not Be Silenced, visit our broadcast page at drjamesdobson.org. That's D, R James Dobson dot O, R, G forward slash broadcast. And by the way, if you missed any part of the broadcast today, you'll find that audio on that site as well.
Roger Marsh: Be sure to join us again tomorrow for part two of our conversation with Pastor Erwin Lutzer about his fascinating new book called We Will Not Be Silenced. For all of us here at Family Talk, I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks for listening and join us again next time.
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.