Roger Marsh: Thank you for listening to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. And the program you're about to hear was recorded in January 2022 at the National March for Life in Washington, DC. Enjoy.
Hello and welcome to this Friday edition of Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. And today on the program, we're sharing the second half of a recent conversation that Dr. Tim Clinton had with a very special guest. Her name is Dr. Christina Francis. She is a board certified OB-GYN who currently practices medicine in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Dr. Francis is also the chair of the board of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. On yesterday's program, Dr. Clinton and Dr. Francis laid out what AAPLOG is all about. They talked about the upcoming Dobbs v. Mississippi case, that is scheduled to be ruled upon by the Supreme Court later this year.
Dr. Francis also shared how she got involved in the pro-life movement and is now on a mission to equip other medical professionals, to provide evidence based rationale for defending the lives of both the pregnant mother and her child. If you missed yesterday's broadcast, just visit drjamesdobson.org/broadcast, and you can hear it in its entirety. Now today, Dr. Clinton and Dr. Francis will continue their dialogue about the state of medicine as it relates to conscience and pro-life ethics. They'll also explain how science is actually on the side of the pro-life movement as well. Let's go there right now on today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Christina, it's so great to have you back here on Family Talk, what a delightful conversation yesterday.
Dr. Christina Francis: Thanks for having me back again today. I appreciate it.
Dr. Tim Clinton: As we get started, you're a practicing OB-GYN doc. God has uniquely and strategically, I believe, placed you in a role with a voice for such a time as this. You're helping lead the American Association of Pro-Life OBGYNS, AAPLOG, and God's doing some unique work there. So encouraged to hear how physicians are flocking into this association, and standing boldly for life. In the midst of it, you are working intentionally because we're in a battle, we're in a real fight. Can you just recap your heart, your calling and what God's doing?
Dr. Christina Francis: Yeah, absolutely. So, I realized, which I don't know why it actually took me until about seven, eight years ago, to realize but as an OB-GYN, how uniquely positioned I was to talk to, not only my patients, but my colleagues and the public about the science that exists, that backs up the pro-life position, that life begins at the moment of conception, but also then about seven, eight years ago, when I was exposed to AAPLOG and heard for the first time ever, the overwhelming scientific evidence that abortion harms women. I didn't learn that in my medical training. And that information was suppressed. And so when I heard that, then it was very clear that as a physician, my job is to protect and promote the health of both of my patients, both my maternal patient and my pre-born patient. And so I can't imagine a greater calling and a greater thing to do than to speak up for those that really can't speak for themselves. Of course, those pre-born children, but also the millions of women who have been victimized by the abortion industry.
Dr. Tim Clinton: You educated us yesterday on the influence of OB-GYN docs, or at least organizations affiliated with those physicians and their influence in the whole abortion world. As we talked, we referenced the Supreme Court case, the Dobbs case, and how your organization has given a second view of influence here. Just recast that for us.
Dr. Christina Francis: Yeah, absolutely. So AAPLOG submitted an amicus brief in the Dobbs case to give the court more information on the harms specifically of second and third trimester abortions on women. So those harms would be a significant increased risk of preterm birth in future pregnancies, where they might lose those babies then because of severe prematurity. Also, an increased risk of breast cancer if women have these abortions prior to their first full term pregnancy, and also an increased risk of mental health disorders, suicide, a seven times increased risk of suicide. And these are precisely the abortions that this Mississippi law would prevent.
And so, we presented that information. Also, briefly touched on the fact that science now has come to the point that we know that these babies can feel pain. And second and third trimester abortions oftentimes are done in a way that dismembers that living baby that can feel pain. And so that needs to enter into the conversation as well. The interesting thing is the opposing medical brief that was opposing the Mississippi law. They barely referenced any scientific evidence at all. It was all rhetoric and just those talking lines and somehow, you're interfering.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Emotionalism, sensationalism.
Dr. Christina Francis: Exactly, exactly. Because they know that the scientific evidence is on the side of life overwhelmingly.
Dr. Tim Clinton: This has become so politicized. It's horrible. But as we go back, follow the science, follow the science, evidence based work, it's on the pro-life side period.
Dr. Christina Francis: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: As we talked too, and we talked about the precarious nature of the case and the role of the physician, and there was pushback in there, help us understand that again.
Dr. Christina Francis: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think because OB-GYNs know that when we take care of pregnant women, we are caring for two patients. Every OB-GYN, even if it's an OB GYN who performs abortion, which again is only about 7% of OB-GYNs. But even if it's one who performs abortions, they know deep in their heart of hearts that, that is a human being that they are dealing with in utero. And so, I think their only recourse can be that the court or the government needs to stay out of the practice of medicine. And, of course, this is about the only issue where they argue that, there are many other issues that they invite government involvement in medicine. But I think that, that's the only argument that they can have, because they know that this is a human being that they're ending the life of. I think they know that it's harming women.
And so, their pushback is that somehow, we're interfering in the physician-patient relationship. However, this is a scenario in which the government has every right to intervene, but the specific question, I think, in this case is, the Supreme Court significantly overstepped their jurisdiction with Roe v. Wade, because they were not interpreting a law that was on the books, they were making a law, which is not their job to do. And so, why Roe should be overturned. And I hope that, that happens with this case is so that then this decision can be returned to the states where we can have real discussions with our elected officials to determine whether or not abortion is going to be legal in each individual state.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Couple of more of objections in that case, Dr. Francis, one was some say that the Dobbs case banning abortions after 15 weeks is unacceptable because some women "don't even know that they're pregnant at that point," thus excluding them from being able to make a choice about an abortion at all. Address that argument.
Dr. Christina Francis: Yeah, well, so I think there's a couple different ways we can look at that. And first is, coming back to the central question of why abortion is wrong, and that's the fact that it involves ending the life of a human being.
Dr. Tim Clinton: This is a life.
Dr. Christina Francis: Exactly.
Dr. Tim Clinton: This is another life.
Dr. Christina Francis: Exactly. And so, even if a woman doesn't know she's pregnant until after 15 weeks, we're still dealing with a human life. And so, she finds herself in a crisis situation where she can't possibly imagine being able to care for this child. There are a number of things that we can offer her besides abortion and not even forcing her to parent. She can place her baby for adoption. She can put her baby in a safe haven baby box, which are popping up all over the country now, it's an amazing organization. There are a number of options, or we can give her the support that she needs to parent that child. And that's really the compassionate thing to do for her, but also saying that there are significant number of women who don't know they're pregnant until after 15 weeks is completely disingenuous. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen sometimes, but the vast majority of women, certainly by 15 weeks know that they're pregnant.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yeah. And so it just basically shoots down that whole thing of this is my body. Going a step further here, that argument, that abortion is healthcare. Can you address that for us?
Dr. Christina Francis: Yes, I would love to. So I can unequivocally say that abortion is not healthcare. And in fact, for the Dobbs case for oral arguments, we had almost 80 medical professionals decked out in our white coats in front of the Supreme Court, to say, unequivocally, visually say that abortion is not healthcare, and that as healthcare providers, we are there to call for overturning Roe, and to call for an end to abortion. But the reason it's not healthcare is because pregnancy is not a disease. It is a natural process of the body, it doesn't need to be treated in the sense of ending it and getting rid of it.
So, we know that pregnancy, yes, there are complications that come along with pregnancy, but it also carries a lot of health benefits for women. And abortion has zero health benefits for women and has significant detrimental effects. And I don't know any other aspect of healthcare that you can say that about, that there's zero health benefits and only health risks. The other thing that I think is just a very clear indicator that abortion isn't healthcare is if it's essential women's healthcare, then why do 93% of women's healthcare providers not do it?
Dr. Tim Clinton: Christina, I wanted to get your response to the Supreme Court's reaction during the case, news outlets everywhere were freaking out. The administration was too, there was such pushback because "it looks like Roe has the possibility of being overturned in the future." What did you think about the Supreme Court justices and the questions they were asking?
Dr. Christina Francis: Yeah, well, so I am definitely not a legal expert. So I'll make that disclaimer.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Sure. Understand, just looking for your…
Dr. Christina Francis: Some of the things that I…
Dr. Tim Clinton: Were you encouraged by them?
Dr. Christina Francis: Yeah. Yeah. I really was, by some of them and some of them left me with my jaw on the ground, to be honest with you. So, when Justice Sotomayor said that fetal pain is only a concept that a few fringe doctors believe. First of all, all 80 of us that were out in front of the Supreme Court do not represent a fringe. We represent a significant number of physicians who know the science. On that point, just as an informational point for your listeners, ACOG and the abortion industry oftentimes base their claim that fetuses don't feel pain until the third trimester. On a 2010 study by a Dr. Derbischer who said that they don't have the neural connections and all of that to feel pain until the third trimester. Dr. Derbischer just in 2020 actually came out with an updated study and redacted his 2010 study, and said that the evidence is now clear that fetuses feel pain as early as 12 weeks gestation.
And so even the study that they are basing their claim on, of fetuses don't feel pain until the third trimester has now been redacted by the original author. So this is not a fringe thing to believe that these babies can feel pain. It's not a fringe thing to believe that abortion isn't healthcare. So, I found that comment very interesting, but I also loved hearing Justice Barrett talk about what other options are open for women, and how supporting women involves giving them these resources and these other options, as opposed to just offering abortion. Even the justices that talked about maybe the court needs to get out of this discussion and just return it to the states.
That was how our government was built is that you would have robust debate and discussion amongst the elected officials who are answerable to the people who elected them. These justices are not answerable to the American public. I would hope that they would see themselves answerable to a higher power and in our God, but they are not elected and they are not answerable to the people, so even the comments… Now, do I wish that our Court would decide to interpret the Constitution rightly and interpret that all of our Constitutional rights apply to preborn children as well as persons? Absolutely. But even I was encouraged by the justices saying they think that maybe the court should get out of this issue and return it to the states.
Dr. Tim Clinton: When you look at also the Texas case where they refuse to overturn the Texas law on abortion, this seems to be trending in the right direction for the pro-life movement. I think most people believe whether or not it gets overturned with Dobbs, people believe that somewhere down the not too far distant future, this is going to be overturned. And God help us to go there. You would figure after 49 years and 60 plus million abortions that we need to get to the end of this.
Dr. Christina Francis: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I want to ask you this.
Dr. Christina Francis: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: If you look at some of the survey data out there, it says that the majority of Americans want some type of restriction on abortion. I saw a new piece that came out, that talked about millennials. 52% of millennials say that they don't just want restrictions, they want abortion outlawed to end after the detection of a heartbeat. That's a big deal.
Dr. Christina Francis: That's a huge deal.
Dr. Tim Clinton: In the midst of that, if that's true, we have conversations going on all the way about free access to abortion, all the way up to birth. We've got people, the administration and more, talking openly about that kind of thing. Governor Northam, the former governor of Virginia, talking about that, who by the way, is a physician himself.
Dr. Christina Francis: Physician. I know.
Dr. Tim Clinton: How do we go from wanting restrictions, the majority of people, 49 years of March for Life and more, and we're talking about that stuff. It's just unbelievable to me.
Dr. Christina Francis: You're right. I think it is a very vocal minority that is pushing for this no holds barred, abortion access all the way through, and even after the time of birth. But you're right. When you look at polling data that are talking to everyday Americans who are living their lives, when they ask the question, do you support Roe v Wade? Most people say yes, because they don't even know what that means. They think that it's a good thing. And they don't know it means abortion up till birth. But when you ask specific questions of, do you think abortion should be restricted after a heartbeat is present, or after the first trimester. Like you said, a majority will say yes. And I was so encouraged, because I saw that pulling data recently about millennials as well. And I was so encouraged by that because I really do think this next generation of Americans, this next generation of physicians, they are returning to the right direction.
And that brings me hope. And it gives me, it energizes me and I hope it will others too, to continue, especially to talk to young people about the value of human life, why we value human life and that it is a human life from the moment of conception. And as such, even though that pre-born child might pose some inconvenience to mom or dad, or might pose a hardship that, how do we treat people in our lives or how do we treat situations in our lives that are difficult? We don't treat them by ending a life. We treat them by trying to fix the root cause. And that's really what we need to turn to in this country.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I think of the words of the Apostle Paul, when he said, don't go weary in well doing. It's easy to get a little weary when you've been pushing and pushing and pushing, and not a lot of things change. We all understand that in every area of our life. But when we look at this movement, good things are happening. And the reason we continue is because these policies really, again, do affect how we live our lives. And so if we don't step up into this moment, who will? Do we just turn a blind eye? It goes back to that moment where you had that aha, wait a second. There's a Holocaust, a modern day Holocaust. The lives of babies are at stake here. Who's going to step up and into this moment? Let me go back to the organization, AAPLOG the association, if there are physicians out there listening right now who would love to learn more and maybe stand with you and that organization, how do they, or where do they go?
Dr. Christina Francis: Yes, absolutely. So we would love to have more physicians join us. And just as an aside too, we have…
Dr. Tim Clinton: Need them. You need them.
Dr. Christina Francis: We need them, we need them. We are a David going up against the Goliath here. And so, the more numbers we have…
Dr. Tim Clinton: It's a political machine.
Dr. Christina Francis: Exactly. The more numbers we have, the stronger we can be. And not only does it benefit our organization to have more members, but then we are there for you too. As a medical professional, to know that you are not alone. I know so many people feel very alone and an isolated in their pro-life position, but we provide a community for them. And so they can find out about that and even more at our website, which is AAPLOG.org. And they can access our resources. We have practice guidelines on how to counsel your patients who are abortion minded, or how to talk to them about the risks of abortion.
And so, I would encourage anyone who's in the medical profession who desires to practice pro-life medicine to join us. We have specific subsections for midwives, for mental health professionals, for family medicine physicians. And we just started a new subsection for medical professionals of color, specifically to address the Holocaust of abortion within minority communities, which we know that the abortion industry targets minority communities and minority women are suffering even at even greater levels from the devastating effects of abortion. And so we're really excited to address that as well.
Dr. Tim Clinton: That website again is AAPLOG.org.
Dr. Christina Francis: .org. Yes.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Now, with that one more piece.
Dr. Christina Francis: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I thought this was fascinating. You're also associated with the abortion pill reversal network. Let's talk about the abortion reversal pill. We had Dr. Bill Lyle on here. And we've had some conversations with him about that. Talk to us about the abortion reversal pill.
Dr. Christina Francis: Sure. So AAPLOG is very proud to be a part of the abortion pill reversal network, and encouraging physicians to join. So I actually am abortion pill reversal provider. I've had a successful reversal with a patient. It was, out of the thousands of babies I've delivered, it was one of the happiest deliveries I've ever done, and just such a neat experience, and an experience that I think all physicians should have. And if we truly care about providing women with their choices, we should care about them having the choice to potentially save their child. We know that a significant number of women after they begin the process, so medication abortions involve taking first one pill and then 24 to 48 hours taking another medication.
And if they change their mind after taking that first medication, we actually can administer natural progesterone, which is a hormone that a woman's body produces in early pregnancy anyways, and an attempt to save her child. And our current data says that we have about a 70% success rate. There are more than 3,000 babies alive now who would have otherwise died, because of the miracle of abortion pill reversal. Unfortunately, the abortion industry and its allies like ACOG are claiming that it's junk science and that it's dangerous for women. But again, if people are listening and they want to find out more, they can go to our website. We have a special page on our website, just dedicated to abortion pill reversal, that has frequently asked questions as well as a video that busts the top 11 myths that people have about abortion pill reversal, especially within the medical field, and talking about why those aren't true and why it's safe for women, why it's effective and why it is a choice that every physician, regardless of their position on abortion, should desire to offer to their patients who change their minds.
Dr. Tim Clinton: We win this battle together.
Dr. Christina Francis: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: That's how we do it.
Dr. Christina Francis: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Let me give you the closing word. Would you speak to our listeners, just your closing thoughts on where we're at and where we're going and the hope that's in your heart?
Dr. Christina Francis: Absolutely. Yeah. Just we are in such an exciting time where we potentially see the travesty of Roe being overturned and then our real fight begins, because it doesn't mean abortion becomes illegal across the country, it just means that the decision would return to the states.
Dr. Tim Clinton: To the states.
Dr. Christina Francis: And so, if the court rules, how we hope that they rule and so, first I would ask all of your listeners to be in daily prayer for this, to be praying for Roe to end, and join us then in celebrating if, and when that happens, but then to join us in really starting to talk on a local level and to your state legislators about ending abortion in your state. But also just one last thing that I would like to leave with listeners is there is hope and forgiveness for anyone who's listening, who has had an abortion, that you can find healing. And for any medical professionals that are out there who are just, maybe this is resonating with them, please join us. You are not alone. And the real practice of medicine is life affirming and empowering for women when we empower them with information and help them choose life.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yeah. My mother and father who were just strong in their faith would say, "Hey, the one thing we can all do collectively together is get on our knees."
Dr. Christina Francis: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Ask God to do what only He can do. And may that be our resolve together. What a delight to have you here, Dr. Christina Francis, such a joy and Dr. Dobson, his wife, Shirley, the entire team, we salute you and the work you're doing. Keep up the good fight.
Dr. Christina Francis: Thank you, Tim. Thank you for having me.
Roger Marsh: A timely reminder to keep praying and keep fighting for the lives of the pre-born. You're listening to family talk. And that was the conclusion of Dr. Tim. Clinton's fascinating two part discussion with Dr. Christina Francis. Dr. Francis is a practicing OB-GYN and chair of the board of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Now, if you missed any part of this two day program, you can listen to both broadcasts in their entirety when you go to drjamesdobson.org/broadcast, that is if you're not there already. While you're there, you can also learn more about Dr. Christina Francis, AAPLOG, and you can search for other pro-life themed broadcasts from our archives as says well.
On another note, seems hard to believe, but Easter is approaching very quickly. It's such a great time of year to reflect on Christ's love and sacrifice. It's also the perfect time to invite your non-believing friends or coworkers or acquaintances to church to hear the great news of the gospel. Along those lines, I want to share with you a special campaign that we are supporting here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. It's called The Life Baskets Initiative. Here's how it works. First, pray for God to put someone on your heart, a person or a family, could be a neighbor, a coworker, maybe even an old friend, someone with whom He would like you to share the gospel. Then take a simple basket, one like you can get it Hobby Lobby, or online, Walmart, you get the idea, and then fill it up with treats and other goodies for that person or family. Add an invitation to your church's Easter services, along with a small Bible and a gospel tract. And finally pray and give it to that person, and then watch the Lord work.
Worst case scenario, your friend throws out the Bible and the tract and enjoys the goodies, but best case they go to church with you. They accept Christ as Savior and Lord and eternity is changed for them. Now for more information on how you can create a life basket, and also helpful links for what to put in it, go to drjamesdobson.org/lifebasket. As always, thank you for making Family Talk a part of your day and your life. We are so blessed to be able to bring you relevant God honoring programs each and every day. And we hope you'll join us again next time for another addition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.