Roger Marsh: Well, hello everyone, and welcome to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. Thanks so much for joining us today, and every day for that matter. I'm Roger Marsh. Today's interview guest has a unique testimony and calling and an exciting message to share. Rabbi Jason Sobel grew up in New Jersey and was raised in a Jewish home. He went to Hebrew school and revered the Jewish traditions of his family. But when Jason turned 18, he encountered Yeshua, Jesus. Now, Rabbi Jason dedicates his time to teaching Christians the importance of our understanding of our heritage, in order to fully appreciate the promises that Jesus came to fulfill.
Roger Marsh: Rabbi Jason Sobel is the founder of Fusion Global, a ministry that seeks to bring people into the full inheritance of faith in Jesus Christ, by connecting treasures of the old and the new. Rabbi Jason received his rabbinic ordination from the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations in 2005. He earned his Bachelor of Arts in Jewish Studies from Moody Bible College, and his MBA in Intercultural Studies from Southeastern Seminary. He is a highly sought-after speaker, an author and a religious advisor for The Chosen, the multi-season TV show about the life of Jesus. Today Rabbi Sobel joins our own Dr. Tim Clinton, and they begin an exciting conversation about the wonder of God's word. Let's get started.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Rabbi Jason, it's so good to have you here this Holy Week, this week of Easter. We have a lot to get in today, specifically your new book, Mysteries of the Messiah: Unveiling Divine Connections from Genesis to Today. What an amazing subject for this week.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Oh man. I'm so excited to be with you and to be able to share a little bit. This is certainly a very important time, so it's great to be here.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Jason, your work really is about restoring the lost connection of our ancient roots, and rediscovering our forgotten heritage. Really. I just want to make sure our listeners upfront understand that what you're trying to do is you want to bring the old, the history, the inheritance, the incredible gift that's ours and the new together, so we can understand how God has uniquely worked, and brought these mysteries of the Messiah to us as a gift.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we want to understand the full story, not just part of the story. I mean, if you want to fall in love with Jesus more, you got to understand from beginning to end, and I'll never forget, one year, right before the Super Bowl, I went out, and I bought a high television. I was so excited to watch the game. People were like, it's going to change everything. I watched it. I'm like, man, this isn't that great. I don't understand what all the hype is about. Then at the end of the game, I had a realization. I'm flipping through the channels and I realized that the high definition channels I watched the whole game in standard definition. I actually saw it in the high definition channels. I'm like, this does make a difference.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Part of what this book, Mysteries of the Messiah does, is we want people to see the Bible in high definition. That's part of the connecting of the old and the new, to know how every detail of the story God brought together, and I believe is that road to experiences that causes our hearts to burn and gives us that sense of wonder. That's why I wrote the book, in part.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yeah. One of the greatest dangers I think for us as believers is to forget. If you look through the Old Testament, even Paul referenced that there were generations who had forgotten the God of their fathers. I think when you go back, you forget the narrative. You forget what the story's all about, Jason.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Yeah. I mean, I think so many Christians believers rightfully so, are focused on the New Testament because it's such an important part, foundational to our faith, to our salvation, but it only makes sense in the context of the Old Testament, of the Hebrew scriptures. I mean, when Paul writes, all scripture is God-breathed, there is no New Testament Canon of the Bible at the time. He's reading the Hebrew scriptures, the Old Testament. And one of the interesting things the Rabbis say, is that everything was written for the sake of the Messiah. So, every detail found in the Old Testament, ultimately points to the Messiah, right? Even from the very first letter in Hebrew, the word beginning in Genesis 1:1, Hebrew begins with the letter bet. The very last word of the New Testament in the book of revelation is Amen. Those two letters in Hebrew, B and N spells Ben, which in Hebrew means son, like Benjamin, right? So, from the first letter to the last letter, it all points to the son, the Messiah Yeshua Jesus.
Dr. Tim Clinton: So, these mysteries, and then we'll add the word prophecies.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I was thinking about Josh McDowell not long ago saying that there were something like 300 plus prophecies, like 333 prophecies all fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and the probability of anything like that happening, Rabbi, is what?
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Yeah. I mean, it's insane. You can't even calculate it. Right? You're talking about there, and what he's talking about is just direct prophecies.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yes.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: We're not even talking about types and shadows and the details. I mean, you're talking literally all, it's what Jesus say, and so John says in the Book of John, all the books in the world, couldn't contain all the things that are fulfilled in Him. For all eternity, he's going to be showing us how this all came together.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Jason, you also speak about how Jesus felt festivals and traditions and the Old Testament teachings were really important for us to understand, in context of the entire story.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, every major event in the life of Jesus happened on a biblical holiday. He died as the Passover lamb, which we're going to get into. He rose from the dead. His resurrection was on a biblical holiday, the biblical holiday of First Fruits. That's why Paul calls him the first fruits from among the dead. If you had a good first fruits, it was a guarantee of a greater harvest to come. So, we're the greater harvest of the resurrection to come. He pours out the spirit on Pentecost, which is not a New Testament holiday. It actually goes back to the day Moses gives the 10 commandments at Mount Sinai. So, word and spirit come on the same day, and the reason for that is God created the world by the word he spoke, as a spirit of God hovered over the deep. So, in the same way, creation came about by word and spirit. New creation, salvation transformation comes when the spirit of God applies the word of God to our lives.
Dr. Tim Clinton: So, in your book, Mysteries of the Messiah: Unveiling Divine Connections from Genesis to Today, numbers become significant, words become significant. There's so much that just sort of integrates together that it's, mind-boggling. It's challenging, but it's also, I think, encouraging and comforting, because it's stunning, really.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: It's what Jesus was doing on the road to Emmaus when his disciples were distracted and discouraged, and they thought it was all over, that their hope was lost. Then he opens up and he shows how everything in the law, in the prophets, in the writings, were all fulfilled to him. When you see the level of detail, it just adds a sense of wonder. It adds a sense of mystery. I think that's something that's been lost in many ways. I think the Bible is shallow enough for a child to be able to swim in, but it's so deep you'll never be able to mine the depths of it. That's the wonder of God's word. There's always something new. There's always something more in there, and that's why we should be excited every time we open the scriptures, because there's something to be found and discovered. It should never be boring.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Jason, all this goes back to a young boy who grew up in New Jersey, a Jewish home, a young boy who in his heart became hungry, began to dedicate his entire being if you will, to find a truth. Tell us about that young man named Jason Sobel.
Rabbi Jon Sobel: Yeah, that's right. I grew up in the Holy Land, New Jersey, where there were more Jews than in Jerusalem, and being Jewish was really important. I had lost most of my family growing up in the Holocaust, went to synagogue as a child, Hebrew school, bar mitzvahed. In my late teens, I wound up working in a recording studio in New York City, looking at the lives of all these famous individuals. I said to myself, there has to be more to life than just this. That's where I began my spiritual journey. I was studying with my Rabbi, and also, I was studying martial arts and Eastern philosophy. I kind of became a Jew-Bu, a new- age, Jewish Buddhist, right? I was looking for a connection and encounter with God more than just religion or ritual, although there's beauty in that, right?
Rabbi Jason Sobel: One day I was meditating. I was like, Ohmm, and my soul began to vibrate, and I left my body. The next thing I knew I was in heaven and I saw this King high and lifted up on this throne. I didn't know anything about Jesus. I mean, growing up, I knew Jewish kids and Catholic kids and maybe a liberal Christian or two, but I knew this King on this throne and this glorious light was Jesus, his Hebrew name, Yeshua. He told me I was called to serve him, and I felt the power of God. The next thing I know is I'm back in my body, going, "I'm called to serve him." My Mom's like, "You're called to serve, who? Jesus? What's wrong with you? Are you Meshuggeneh? Are you crazy? We're Jewish." I had no context for who Jesus was. Right?
Rabbi Jason Sobel: I thought he was some sort of God-man, some sort of avatar, something along those lines. My best friend, John came to faith and he said, "Jason, do you think you could tell the difference between the Old and the New Testament?" I said, "Sure." He read me a passage about the crucifixion, and I said, "That's a New Testament." He said, "Well, let me read you another passage." He was bruised for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities. By his stripes we're healed. He said, "Old or New?" I said, "Obviously, that's Jesus in the New Testament." He said, "No, that's Isaiah 53, the Jewish prophet speaking 700 years before he walked the face of the earth," and I began to be provoked to jealousy, and that really began me trying to figure out who this Jesus was.
Dr. Tim Clinton: I want to connect a dot here. One of Dr. Dobson's good friends is Jonathan Cahn. That friend of yours, John was Jonathan Cahn, right?
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Well, it was a different John, but this is what happened. John invites me to a Messianic congregation, okay, led by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. So, we'd go to the service that night, and it's the first time I'd ever been in any sort of Jesus setting, right?
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yeah.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: And they said, "If you prayed this prayer for the first time, will you please raise your hands? It was the first time I'd ever prayed to Jesus, so I raised my hand. He said, "If you raised your hand, you've just been born again." I had no idea what it meant to be born again, but I knew I gave my Mother enough trouble when I was born once. Jewish kids don't get born again. But Jonathan's like, "I saw you raise your hand. If you can't stand here for the Messiah, you won't be able to stand for Him in the world."
Rabbi Jason Sobel: I thought I was safe. Every eye was supposed to be closed. The lights were supposed to be down. It's a personal decision, so I thought I was safe. But I knew with what Jonathan was saying, I wasn't going anywhere until I stood up. They gave me the first New Testament I'd ever seen, and I took it home and I was blown away as I read it, how Jewish it was, the Messianic prophecies that were in it, and what Jesus said to me in that encounter in heaven was a verse in the New Testament. I'm like, he is the one Moses and the prophets spoke of. I came to faith, started to attend Beth Israel, began to be discipled by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn, sitting under his teaching, 20-something years ago.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Rabbi, you're quite a scholar, and through this entire journey, all the traditions you grew up with now took on new depth and meaning, is what you say.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Absolutely.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Explain that real quick, so our listeners can understand this, the spiritual journey that you're now on.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Yeah. I mean, one of the amazing things, when I came to know Jesus and began to read the New Testament was, whoa, he celebrated the Passover. The Last Supper was actually the last Seder. It was a Passover Seder. I mean, I grew up celebrating that my whole life, but now I realize that every detail from the unleavened bread to the cups that we drank, to the bitter herbs, I mean, they all pointed to him. Every holiday that we celebrated, everything that I had read in the Hebrew scriptures, they all pointed to him. So, what I realized it didn't make me less Jewish. It actually made me more Jewish, because Jesus and the disciples did these things, and now I was embracing them as part of the full inheritance that we have in him.
Dr. Tim Clinton: So, that led then to your ministry and logically, Fusion Global, connecting the treasures of the old and the new together. Let's go back then, Rabbi Jason to creation. Let's just start on the journey here real quick. Like you take us on in your book, Mysteries of the Messiah, connect the Messiah back to creation itself, and then let's start mining our way through the scriptures.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: The very first word in Hebrew in Genesis 1 is bereshit, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The word bereshit, in the beginning can literally be read not in the beginning, but on account of the first-born, God created the heavens and the earth. When the Rabbis read that, one of the things they read is that only God only created the world for the sake of the first born. There's actually a story in the Rabbinic tradition of God coming the Messiah before he creates the world. He says, "I'm not going to create it unless you are willing to die to bring salvation and redemption," because God wants to make sure there is the cure before the sickness enters the world. This is exactly how Revelation reads it. The lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: So, everything was created because the Messiah was willing to die for us. It could be read not just on account of the firstborn, but through the firstborn, God created the heavens, the earth, meaning the firstborn is the one who creates the world, which is how John 1 reads it. Even the second word, the word Bara, to create, is actually an illusion to the Trinity. There's three letters in the word for create. The B is the son, the Ben. The second is the R, the rock, the Holy spirit. The letter olive is the Abba, because the son, the spirit and the father were all involved in the work of creation.
Dr. Tim Clinton: You're listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. I'm Dr. Tim Clinton, your host today. Our special guest today is Rabbi Jason Sobel. We're talking about his brand new book, Mysteries of the Messiah, an amazing piece of work, especially for this Holy Week, as we begin to really celebrate the resurrection of the Christ. Jason, your love for Christ has become so evident, so real. Again, if you take that and go back and begin to examine the scriptures in totality, it becomes so much more passionate and beautiful because you're right, it's just, it makes no sense to the human mind, how this could unfold really, without the power of the Holy Spirit revealing this to us and seeing the amazing work of God through every page of the scriptures, the Holy scriptures. When you see that, you can't help but come alive with passion and mystery, really.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Yeah. It's amazing, especially as we're in this Holy week, right? I mean, think about it for a moment. We remember on Good Friday, Jesus dying on a cross. But to understand that, of all the ways he could have died, why does he die on a cross? We have to understand the mystery of the tree. How did sin come into the world? Sin came into the world because the first man and woman stole from the tree, and couldn't fix what they had done wrong. So, God literally puts back on the tree, Jesus, who is the second Adam, to make an atonement, to make a repair, to make a correction for the sin that we couldn't, right? Think about it, as he's hanging on that tree, he has his hands pierced. Well, why are his hands pierced? Well, how did we steal from the tree?
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Our hands stole from the tree, so his hands were literally pierced for us, because of what they used to bring the fall and sin into the world. Then add, then Jesus has his side pierced. Well, why is his side pierced? Well, who was the one who led Adam into temptation? It was Eve, the one taken from the side. So, literally Jesus is making atonement, not just for Adam, but for Eve, for the woman. He's restoring the whole family, bringing reconciliation, restoring the relationship between man and woman. He has his feet pierced. Why? Because what's the first Messianic prophecy that we read about in the creation account? Genesis 3:15, it says, the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yes.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: The serpent is like the devil. He's like, you think you're going to crush my head? I'm going to nail your feet to a tree and let's see how you're going to accomplish that now. But he was actually fulfilling the prophecy, even though he thought he was foiling it. Then, one of the things I love the most, he is a crown of thorns on his head. Why a crown of thorns? What's the curse of creation? The ground will produce thorns and thistles. He's literally taking the curse of creation on his head to reverse the curse, and to restore the blessing because that's how much he loves us.
Dr. Tim Clinton: So, then if you connect John Chapter 1, where it says, in the beginning was the word and take it back to the Genesis account, it's an amazing parallel here, where you see the power of God, right from the beginning, and then the fulfillment of the coming of the Messiah.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: John is reading it in a way that is a very Jewish reading of the text, that it was the son, the word, that was there at the very beginning of creation, putting it all together. What's also interesting with what you just said with John 1:1, is that John 1:1 also alludes to something else connected to the season, because John 1:1 can literally be read in the Greek like this. In the beginning was the word, and the word was face to face with God. So, Jesus was face-to-face with God in the very beginning of creation, but also it says of Moses, who we think about Moses at the Passover season, at this time, it talks about the Messiah is going to be the greater than Moses. Deuteronomy says, there's no other prophet that has arisen to this day who God spoke to face-to-face. God spoke to Moses face-to-face, but Jesus is the greater Passover. He was with God face to face in the very beginning before time ever began.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Yes. Let us create man-
Rabbi Jason Sobel: That's right.
Dr. Tim Clinton: ... in our image. Rabbi, when I encounter your writings on the Messiah of creation, and again, you're taking us really chronologically through scripture.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Clinton: The takeaway from that piece itself would be what? Tim, remember this about the Messiah of creation?
Rabbi Jason Sobel: It's the reminder that God is the one who brought order out of blessing. I mean, he brought order out of chaos. I think one of the things that we need to remember is that Messiah gave his life to restore everything that is lost, and therefore we can live in a life of abundance, and we can live a life of blessing. But I think on a very practical level, the detail of God in creation, I think so many times we believe these lies about ourselves. We believe that we're worthless. We believe that we're not good enough. We believe that we don't measure up. One of the things about the creation account is that God creates everything through Jesus, with wisdom. That you are not a mistake, that God created you with wisdom. You were fearfully and wonderfully made, and therefore you have purpose. You have destiny. You have a calling, and when we fail to be critical of ourselves or critical of others, we're really being critical of the one who made us, and not fully grateful for the wisdom in which he made us in.
Dr. Tim Clinton: Rabbi, let's close out day one here by also just referencing how the Messiah was promised to the patriarchs. You go back and you remember the God of Abraham and of Isaac and more, how these pieces become really important as we look at the life of Jesus.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Yeah. So significant because in the creation account, in the book, Mysteries of the Messiah, we talk about this prophecy Genesis 3:15, that talks about the seed of the woman. The question that the entire Bible wants to answer is, who is the promised seed? Where is he going to come from? How are we going to be able to recognize him? That answer is what the Book of Genesis and all the genealogies are trying to answer. He's going to come from Abraham, and from Abraham who has two sons, Isaac, and Ishmael, he is going to come through Isaac, and Isaac has Jacob and Esau.
Rabbi Jason Sobel: Is it going to be Jacob or Esau? It's going to be Jacob, and Jacob has 12 sons. Which of the 12 sons is the Messiah going to come through? It culminates in Genesis 49 saying the scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler staff from between his feet until Shiloh comes. The Messiah is going to come through the tribe of Judah, and that promise in Genesis 49 gives us the timeframes of the Messiah. It gives us a lot of details about the coming of the Messiah, including one of the reasons why the first miracle Jesus had to do was turning the water into wine.
Dr. Tim Clinton: The Mysteries of the Messiah: Unveiling Divine Connections from Genesis all the Way to Today, and by the way, throughout eternity. Rabbi, there's so much to talk about. I mean, I've got pages of notes here that I want to get through with you. I hope you'll join us again tomorrow as we continue this amazing discussion about the Mysteries of our Messiah.
Roger Marsh: Well, what a stimulating conversation between Dr. Tim Clinton and Rabbi Jason Sobel here on Family Talk. Like Dr. Clinton just said, there is so much more to discuss. Proverbs 25:2 tells us, "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter. To search out a matter is the glory of Kings." I hope you'll join us again tomorrow as Rabbi Sobel and Dr. Clinton continue to search through scripture to unveil more Mysteries of the Messiah. To learn more about Rabbi Jason Sobel and Fusion Global, or to hear any portion of the broadcast you might've missed today, please visit our broadcast page at Drjamesdobson.org. That's D-R-james dobson.org/broadcast.
Roger Marsh: Or, give us a call. We'll be happy to suggest a resource for you, or to answer any questions you might have about Family Talk and the James Dobson Family Institute. Our number is (877) 732-6825. That's (877) 732-6825. We're here for you 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Well, that's all the time we have for today. I'm Roger Marsh. Thanks for listening, and be sure to join us again next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.
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