The Harbinger II: The Return - Part 1 (Transcript)

Dr. Dobson: Well, welcome everyone to Family Talk, which is a listener-supported ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. I'm your host, Dr. James Dobson, and thank you for joining us for this program. I think this is going to be a very important discussion because it really comes out of some things that you've heard me say probably many times, that I am increasingly concerned about the moral decay that we're seeing in this country. The drug and substance abuse and the warping of our children in the public schools, sexual promiscuity and perversion, the breakup of the family, the killing of 62 million babies in cold blood, the spiritual apathy that we're seeing now and many other disturbing developments, they have worked together to undermine this country, to weaken it, and I am deeply concerned about what I'm seeing taking place.

And our guests today echoes these concerns and is calling for a return. And we'll talk more about that later. He is Rabbi Jonathan Cahn, one of my very good friends. He's a New York Times best-selling author who has written The Harbinger. I think that came out in 2012, and it sold millions of copies. Then he wrote The Mystery of the Shemitah and The Oracle and The Paradigm, among others. Our listeners are going to be familiar with many of these books.

Rabbi Cahn is also a senior pastor and Messianic Rabbi at Jerusalem Center Beth Israel, and the president of Hope for the World Ministries. As we're going to hear today, he is also a prophetic teacher who connects past, present and future events through the revelation of God's word. Rabbi Cahn has been with us four or five times through the years, and we're going to be talking today about a follow-up to that first book, The Harbinger, and he's calling this one The Harbinger II, which hit the bookstores just this week. Welcome, Rabbi. I always look forward to having you here.

Rabbi Cahn: It's an honor to be with you, as always. Thank you Dr. Dobson.

Dr. Dobson: Well, it's obvious that you're very excited about this new book, aren't you?

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is something I've held back on for years. It's the only book I've held back on. When I wrote The Harbinger, there was so much, and there was so much I couldn't put in it, so what's in The Harbinger is a piece of what came up at that time that we're living now, that's affecting us now. Then there's been the things that have happened since The Harbinger came out, it has not stopped. The progression of judgment has not stopped, what's happened to America has not stopped. And the appearance of warnings have not stopped, or prophetic harbingers has not stopped. And then what's happening right now. So I always knew I would, but it's not the kind of thing I can just say, "Okay, I'm going to do The Harbinger." It's got to be the Lord, so I was praying last year, "Lord, what's the next book?"

And it was this. And I had a very strong sense that this year, and I shared it publicly, that this year was going to be a year of great shaking and that what is spoken of in The Harbinger I was led to speak about when I wrote it, is going to really resume in force and that this had to come out. So in January I started writing. I knew I had to get this out this year. And then it was after that, that everything just came upon America. So, I know it's the time.

Dr. Dobson: Rabbi, before we get into the content of this book, I'd like you to go back to what I said in the introduction and talk about what's going on in this country and around the world. You and I talked about it before, but you're as concerned as I am about what's occurring. Give us your take on it.

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah. Well, first of all, I believe we are at a gigantically dangerous and critical moment for America. I mean, it affects the world, but particularly America, and this is really what I've been warning and you've been warning in all sorts of ways, that our nation has been accelerating in its fall from God. It's not just continuing, it's accelerating. And even under a conservative administration, which I believe has been a reprieve in politically for America, it has not stopped at all, and we are following the template of this mystery because what this is saying is that in ancient Israel, they were warned, and then what did they do after that? Instead of coming back to God, they got worse.

Well, we are following this template to this day. It's not just the science, it's our culture. It's our children. It's our government. It's all those things. So I believe we have a window of time and that there are danger signs that this window is coming to an end. And I saw this year, 2020, a while back because of this, that this was going to be a critical time. So I believe we are in great danger. It's critical.

Dr. Dobson: How did you know 2020 was going to be such a year?

Rabbi Cahn: Okay, well, The Harbinger ends with a chapter called "Things To Come," and it talks about specific things in this biblical [inaudible 00:05:20] which you can find in the Bible again and again, is that this warning comes in the form of a strike on the land. That's the way it comes in the Bible. Well, we had our 9/11, this was a shake-up call, a wake-up call. This is a biblical pattern. Then there is a window given to the nation of years. And there's a time period where it's going to either come back to God, return, repent, revival, or continue away from God and head to judgment and calamity. And America has been heading the other way.

So, it speaks about the shakings and how they will come. And the shakings will come in certain forms like economic collapse, civil disorder, break down, all these things. And some things that have not been yet, but several things that are happening right now. And then there is a mystery that if you want, I can do it now, or I can hold until get to it, either way, but it points to 2020, but the template pointed to this year as a year when the shakings could resume, according to a biblical template,

Dr. Dobson: You know, it's apparent that God is up to something really significant because the world is just turned upside down here in 2020. Now, do you believe that we're entering a time of judgment?

Rabbi Cahn: I believe we have to be concerned that it is. Yeah, I agree. We have an economic collapse which rivals the Depression. We've had riots in the '60s. We've never had everything happen at once and we've never had America so divided. I mean, basically since the Civil War, we have never had such a danger. I agree. It's one thing after another, I believe we have to be concerned. And this is what I would say I was afraid of, or that I was warning or praying about. And looking towards that, would it be this year when the shakings begin. The shakings, the pattern in the Bible is that after that initial thing, you have a resuming of shakings and they're greater than the original one or greater than a 9/11. And they keep going and I don't believe we're finished.

I believe there's going to be more shaking to America. On one hand, God is just, and He holds off for as long as He can. He's merciful, long suffering, but there comes a time when He has to. And then also there's the mercy in it because we've gotten to the point in America, we've gotten so deafened to the voice of God that it takes only by shaking is there a hope of this nation waking up and returning. So the point, ultimate point, even in shaking it, even in judgments like this is that there'll be a turning back for those who will.

Dr. Dobson: Well, you and I were talking on the telephone about six months ago or so. And you said that your great concern is that the American people were running away from their spiritual roots as fast as they could get there. Do you think that is continuing?

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah. Well, I believe we're running and racing to judgment. If you remember it, I think everybody listening remembers, after 9/11, everybody flocked to churches and it was, it was "God bless America, God bless America." And it looked like there was a chance of a spiritual revival turning, awakening, but it never came. And the reason it never came is because there was no repentance.

Dr. Dobson: Exactly.

Rabbi Cahn: And without repentance, there can be no revival. Without a turn there cannot be. ... So instead of getting better or even staying the same, we didn't. We have accelerated, as you say, running, racing. We've accelerated in our fall away from God. And the political change with Donald Trump, that has held back a number of things. That's kept a window open. I believe this is part of the window, but even in this window, the acceleration has progressed. Even in this time. We are seeing things that we wouldn't even have thought in the time of 9/11, and 9/11 was bad. But look at where we are now. I believe for all these things converging, that this is the most dangerous time of make or break for America.

Dr. Dobson: Let's go back to The Harbinger, and kind of summarize your message there. As I recall, a harbinger means a foretelling or an anticipation or an expectation or a warning of something coming. How did that figure into The Harbinger?

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah. And I wasn't planning on writing any books back then. It was the first book, The Harbinger, but I was standing at ground zero and I saw something and something led me to seek something out and it turned out to be this mystery or this template. And the Bible kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And the harbinger, yeah, it's a sign of something that is yet to come. It could be a sign of a good thing, but usually it's used in a sign of warning of something, a calamity coming. And so the harbinger is revealing this, that in the last days of ancient Israel, this is the Northern kingdom, it's recorded in the book of Kings. In the last days, there were harbingers or signs that appeared in the land, signs that were actually recorded, and then capitalized by the prophet, Isaiah. And it's a particular scripture, Isaiah 9:10, which deals with this. And the same signs, I identified nine of them, those same nine signs or harbingers that appeared in the last days of ancient Israel have now appeared on American soil.

And some have appeared in New York City. Some have appeared in Washington, some have involved objects, some of them involved leaders. It's not a general thing. It's not like, okay, we're seeing some signs of the times. They're exact precise replayings on modern soil of what happened in ancient Israel. I mean eerily so, but it begins with that strike, that enemy strike, that was our 9/11. And then from that comes all sorts of things. There's a sign of a tree that falls. Well, that tree or the sycamore fell at Ground Zero. That's written in Isaiah. There is a sign of a specific kind of stone that is going to be the rebuilding. It's about the defiance of a nation when it's being warned by God, instead of coming back, it defies God. And it's even the actual scripture or the vow of defiance that was spoken by the leaders of ancient Israel.

That really produced judgment was actually spoken by our American leaders, starting with the day after 9/11 on the ... and I didn't even know this when I first started seeing this mystery. So it was actually proclaimed to America, which was really identifying America as under judgment. They didn't know what they were doing. It was Tom Dashell was the first one in the Senate, but he did exactly so. So this mystery goes through Obama goes through ... But it is an exact foretelling warning signs of a nation in danger of judgment and racing away from God.

Dr. Dobson: Many of the things you saw in the way of a prophetic warning are now becoming evident. And in other words, Harbinger II is the fulfillment of some of the prophetic warnings that you described in the earlier book.

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah, it is. The Harbinger was really the beginning because it's about the beginning signs. It wasn't the end. It was what happens. And what happened after that with ancient Israel, after they were warned? Well, that's what America has… America's followed the same path. And so these signs have not stopped. They've continued. And there are things that happened that I didn't put in The Harbinger. I mean, a whole bunch of stuff, which is harder in Harbinger II. I put it in under a section called "The Unrevealed" because I just couldn't do it then, or it wasn't for then, but they were signs that were linked with 9/11, but that were prophetic about what we're in danger of right now. And again, even the time period. And I mean, it goes up to right to where we are now. And then is this part of what's going on in our world? Is there a specific biblical mystery that's behind what we're dealing with right now, what's shaking the land?

Dr. Dobson: You speak often about mysteries in the scripture. From that we assume that there are things hidden until the time comes. Is that the context of the mysteries?

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah. In that same way, the word mystery, and now of course appears in the Bible, that simply that God reveals to us and God warns us of other things. So before they're revealed, they're a mystery. And so the Bible is so filled with ... I mean a book is as deep as its author and the Bible is infinite because God is infinite. So there's so much. And the Lord says that these things that happened to Israel, are examples for us, or are in a sense harbingers for us. So I believe God uses his word and uses ... he's consistent. The same God of Israel is the God of over America and the God of now. And so he uses those things. So, yeah, so I believe God reveals. And so that's how the word mystery is.

Dr. Dobson: And you begin The Harbinger II with a mystery of the gate. Tell us what that is.

Rabbi Cahn: This is in the realm of things that I did not write down with The Harbinger, but that linked up where we are. When you look at the Bible in ancient times, first of all, gates were obviously crucial to the city. The kingdoms were walled up and the gate is a place where everything, everybody came through and out and showed the power of the kingdom. And when judgment comes, you see this again and again in the Bible, one of the patterns is that it centers on the gate, judgment begins in the gate. There's many scriptures on the judgment at the gate, the enemy appears that the gate. Now, America, we don't have walled cities anymore. We don't have that, but America does have a gate. And, and the key gate of America has always been New York City.

The Statue of Liberty, that whole passage. Well, where did this all begin? Where did 9/11 strike? It struck at the gate of America. The principle is a judgment begins at the gate. Here's the place where everything goes in and out. The representing power of the nation. And so the enemy appears at the gate. That is a warning sign, not of, not of the end of judgment, but the beginning. And that's what happened on 9/11 and at the gate, but also that at the ancient gates, they would fortify the gates. And so they would put a tower on one side of the gate and a tower on the other side, it would be two towers and they would be identical. They would be twin towers. So literally the enemy would attack the twin towers. We even have that. So this is a warning of the beginning that something was beginning and we are in it right now.

Dr. Dobson: Does the scripture indicate what is coming through that gate? Is it a military attack? Is it disease? What is it?

Rabbi Cahn: Well, that is a great point because, well, it is judgment that comes through the gate and God says, "I will put fire in the gate. The gates are sunk." But the enemy appears at the gate, but at the same time it's judgment. And so it's interesting that you mention that because it's not only that the enemy of 9/11 happened there, but also as we'll get to, but the plague or this plague of coronavirus has also, New York has been the key in this actually spreading it to the nation. So many things have happened in New York City, that is, I believe it's linked to this. I mean, the economic collapses, all these things have been focused on New York City and even to this day. So yeah, I believe it's even more than the enemy appearing.

Dr. Dobson: You make reference in this book to the US Pentagon. Now, obviously that doesn't come out of ancient scriptures. What's the context for that reference?

Rabbi Cahn: Well, not that it's a direct prophecy that way, but it's that the principles that are in the ancient writings point to it, and I'll show you. In the Bible, one of the patterns of a nation under judgment is that when it comes or when it begins or when God warns, the destruction returns to the foundation, or God says, "I will break down the wall and it will…" down to the foundation, the foundation of the nation's powers are focused upon. Now one of the things that happened in the days of judgment, you see with the prophets, is not only is the gate attacked, but the wall was attacked. The defense is walls. Well, we don't have in America again, walls, but we have our own kind of walls. The walls of America are our defense department.

That's our modern walls, focused on the Pentagon, which is literally set up like a fortress. Those are the walls. So, in the day of the beginning of the warning of judgment, the walls are breached. Well, that happened on 9/11. The walls of the Pentagon were breached, but also there's something deeper that the powers of the nation are shaken. It's a warning of what will happen if we don't turn back. So you have the Pentagon representing, of course, America's great military power. Well, when did it begin? Well, the Pentagon was built in 1941 and it was at the same moment that America was beginning to rise as the world's military superpower. It wasn't that before, but 1941 was the year it entered the war and it never came out of being the superpower it is. But the Pentagon is symbolic of that.

So when was the Pentagon begun know they broke the ground. So when was it begun? The Pentagon was begun on 9/11. The Pentagon was born on September 11th. It was the birth of America's rise to super power on 9/11 everything came back, not only to the place to the Pentagon, but the actual day… It's one of the mysteries of why this was 9/11 is long before we knew it as a day of calamity. It was already the day of the foundation of America's power. So everything returns and the warning is that every blessing we have, including our power and our super power is predicated on God. And if we turn away from God, it'll only be a matter of time that that power will crumble.

Dr. Dobson: I was thinking about the implications of that reduction and resolve, if you will, what seems to be occurring now is a kind of a demoralization or weakening of confidence by our people and our leaders. And I see that as very dangerous because when aggressive nations around the world sense that America is vulnerable, that could invite China and Russia and Iran and North Korea, or who knows who to take us on. It's like bullies on a school yard. They don't pick on the toughest guy on the playground. They go after the one who won't fight back, the one who's scared. And right now, Antifa and Black Lives Matter are attacking innocent people and burning down buildings. And what are we doing about it? We defund the police and our mayors are letting it happen. Is there an analogy here?

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah, I believe that is a great danger. It's like a body that is ending its own immune system and here we're at the very moment that we're going to need that. And I believe it was almost this is all a setup because you're weakening your defenses. You're weakening your protection. And while disorder and chaos is threatening, I believe, yeah, this is part of it.

Dr. Dobson: You talk about another mystery. You named it the mystery ship. What do you mean by that?

Rabbi Cahn: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we mentioned the one power of America, military power, but the other kind of foundational power of America's rise is of course its economic power. And that happened a long time, began a long time before the military rise. And it began when actually when Henry Hudson sailed up the river and founded Manhattan. New York City has always been the center of the rise of America's economic power, its financial power, all those things. Well what happened on 9/11? On 9/11, things shook the military power, but it went to New York, the center of its economic power. And what was the other thing the World Trade Center representing its great economic power, but it's deeper than that because where America's economic power began, it wasn't just New York, it was the bottom of New York, which is where the World Trade Center is.

But Henry Hudson, the day that it all began, the rise began and it, and it soon… a trade station was actually set up at the bottom. But the day began was 9/11, New York City was born on September 11th. America's rise to economic power was born on September 11th. So again, it all returns back to the foundation. The warning being, if we do not come back to God, that power, that prosperity is going to crumble and we're watching warnings of that right now. But also on the day of 9/11, you could call it a sign, appears in the water people look, you know, as they're fleeing New York and it's, it's a mystery, and there's a boat, but the boat is not like a modern boat. The boat is from centuries before and it's a replica. It's a reproduction of the Half Moon, the ship of Henry Hudson, which sailed up on 9/11, which is linked to the birth of New York and the birth of America's rise of economic power.

It's sailing now through the destruction because they just happen to have a reproduction that happened to be coming up the river at the same time when 9/11 was happening. So it was like all these things. God says, "What I have built up, I will break down. If you turn away, what I have planted, I will uproot." And that is the warning for where we are now.

Roger Marsh: This is Roger Marsh and we hate to interrupt this broadcast, but unfortunately we've run out of time for today. You've been listening to the first part of Dr. Dobson's interview with prophetic teacher Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. Join us tomorrow and Friday for the remainder of this enlightening discussion. In the meantime, visit our broadcast page at for details about Rabbi Cahn's newest book, The Harbinger II. That's, and then tap onto the broadcast icon at the top of the page. Thanks again for listening and be sure to tune in again next time for another edition of Family Talk. Have a blessed day, everyone.

Announcer: This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.

Dr. Dobson: You know, there are those who believe so strongly in the value of positive thinking that they see nothing to be gained from that which is negative. Well, I respectfully disagree. It's the balance between the positive and the negative that provides the benefit. Let me illustrate. If you place the cable on the positive pole of a car battery, nothing happens. You can put it in your mouth, there'll be no danger. Then take that cable off the positive and put it on the negative pole. There's still no electricity. But what happens when you hook up both the positive and the negative poles? It'll curl your hair, if you have any left. Understanding the interaction between these two forces is especially useful to the task of raising children. There's a time for affirmation and closeness and tenderness and love. That's what nourishes the spirits of our kids.

But there's also a time for correction and discipline and maybe even occasional punishment. Moms and dads who try to be eternally positive, ignoring irresponsibility or defiance or selfishness in their children, will deprive those boys and girls of the benefits of correction. But those who are oppressive and accusatory can also create serious behavioral problems. So what's our goal as parents? It's to balance the positive and the negative, making sure that the cable is hooked to both poles of the battery. That's where the power is found.

Roger Marsh: Hear more at

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